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Old 08-11-2012, 12:49 AM
adamt adamt is offline
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Default So when does life begin....

I am a beekeeper. Most of the bees in a hive are worker bees, all worker bees are females. Workers hatch from unfertilized eggs.

There are instances in which chicks have hatched from unfertilized eggs.

So if life can come from unfertilized eggs, does life really begin at conception(sperm meets egg)? If life begins at conception then did life ever begin for those bees or chicks?


Did Jesus come from an unfertilized egg? Did God send a sperm down to fertilize one of mary's eggs?

By definition Mary was the first ever surrogate mother. Some say surrogacy is wrong. If Jesus was born of a surrogate then how could it be wrong?

If life truly begins at conception, and a woman is trying to get pregnant, and she has unprotected sex every month during ovulation, and each month she sucessfully gets her egg fertilized but she never gets pregnant due to the egg never implanting. So every month, unbeknownst to her, she is passing a fertilized egg out of her system, and she just thinks she didn't get pregnant. The question is, if life begins at conception, then by that definition, those eggs are all little babies. So if she passed one embryo per month for five years while trying to get pregnant, will she have 60 children up in heaven waiting for her that she is absolutely oblivious to?


I am against embryonic stem cell research, but I have to know what I believe and why. And i can't just use the old cliche that life begins at conception, therefore all embryos are alive.

If that is the case, then as I already mentioned, eggs have the potential for being lives as well, therefore are we obligated to attempt to bring each egg to fruition as a human being? are all the eggs that a woman passes unfertilized also waiting for her up in heaven as children?
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Old 08-11-2012, 02:43 AM
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Life begins before the womb. God told Jeremiah Before I formed you in your Mothers Womb I knew you. So life starts before the sperm and egg even meet.
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Old 08-11-2012, 04:13 AM
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Life begins before the womb. God told Jeremiah Before I formed you in your Mothers Womb I knew you. So life starts before the sperm and egg even meet.
Agreed, the answer goes way beyond biology. Our lives started before the universe was even created.

In answer to most of your questions, adamt, only GOD knows.

As for the bees, the rules for the insect kingdom don't really apply to humans. Many insects reproduce asexually, so we can't really make assumptions about human life based on insect life.

I would be very hard pressed to believe that a chicken was born from an unfertilized egg.

In the Bible, GOD states that human life is in the blood. So some may use that to argue that an embryo isn't alive until the heart starts beating. But that's a bit complicated because, from my understanding (which might be a few years out of date), we don't really know when an embryo's heart actually starts beating, we only know when the heartbeat can be detected.

The basic biology behind it all is that a human sperm and a human egg are referred to as haploid cells, because they only carry half of the genetic information necessary to reproduce. When the two haploid cells meet, the genetic information combines into a diploid cell, which results in a complete DNA strand that is a blending of the two parents. This also means that a unique person has been created at fertilization and no new genetic information will ever be added to that person's DNA throughout their lifetime. Information can only be lost from that point on.

So, speaking purely from a genetics standpoint, there is nothing that makes a fertilized egg less human than a full-grown adult. However, GOD is obviously not limited to genetics.

Finally, I think the people who speak out against surrogacy may be under a mistaken impression of what it involves. I don't believe that surrogacy is wrong and it's definitely better than the alternative of Biblical times when the husband actually had to have sex with another woman, if his wife was barren, in order to produce an heir. Or if his brother died without any children, then he would have to have sex with his sister-in-law in order to give his brother an heir.
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:14 PM
adamt adamt is offline
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Life begins before the womb. God told Jeremiah Before I formed you in your Mothers Womb I knew you. So life starts before the sperm and egg even meet.
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
Agreed, the answer goes way beyond biology. Our lives started before the universe was even created.

In answer to most of your questions, adamt, only GOD knows.

As for the bees, the rules for the insect kingdom don't really apply to humans. Many insects reproduce asexually, so we can't really make assumptions about human life based on insect life.

I would be very hard pressed to believe that a chicken was born from an unfertilized egg.

In the Bible, GOD states that human life is in the blood. So some may use that to argue that an embryo isn't alive until the heart starts beating. But that's a bit complicated because, from my understanding (which might be a few years out of date), we don't really know when an embryo's heart actually starts beating, we only know when the heartbeat can be detected.

The basic biology behind it all is that a human sperm and a human egg are referred to as haploid cells, because they only carry half of the genetic information necessary to reproduce. When the two haploid cells meet, the genetic information combines into a diploid cell, which results in a complete DNA strand that is a blending of the two parents. This also means that a unique person has been created at fertilization and no new genetic information will ever be added to that person's DNA throughout their lifetime. Information can only be lost from that point on.

So, speaking purely from a genetics standpoint, there is nothing that makes a fertilized egg less human than a full-grown adult. However, GOD is obviously not limited to genetics.

Finally, I think the people who speak out against surrogacy may be under a mistaken impression of what it involves. I don't believe that surrogacy is wrong and it's definitely better than the alternative of Biblical times when the husband actually had to have sex with another woman, if his wife was barren, in order to produce an heir. Or if his brother died without any children, then he would have to have sex with his sister-in-law in order to give his brother an heir.
both good answers

I could argue with neither.

nate, i had researched it quite a bit before I had even posted this, and from what I can see they are quite confident the heart beats at day 22 with it's own blood, but then again, when i grew up we had nine planets, pluto was one of them and dinosaurs were cold blooded, so....

So I am still wondering about women whose eggs don't implant, but get fertilized. Are those children up in heaven? But I don't really have to have an answer to that question. It doesn't matter.

I also wonder(though it isn't my business) why God continues to let babies be murdered like we (the USA) do. Sometimes I think that if God lets it continue, maybe it isn't as bad as we thought.

You both know me well enough to know I am not trolling or going apostate on here, just legitamate thoughts.

Lastly, if a husband and wife use a gestational surrogate, and during the process the wifes eggs are extracted and fertilized. Say there are four embryo after the process is said and done. Now that couple uses two in their surrogate, that leaves two. Are they obligated to use the remaining two? Those embryos could be frozen indefinitely(something one may argue would point to life not having yet begun).

again, I am not trolling, rather discussing among fellow Christians as opposed to being asked by secular people. I would like to have it thought out if ever posed the questions I am posing now.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:46 PM
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For the surrogacies, they usually fertilize several embryos then implant up to 5 in the surrogate mother, in the hopes that at least one of them takes. If more than one takes, then they have agreements worked out in advance for stuff like that. They can either "reduce," which is a nice word for aborting all but one of the embryos or the parents could decide to take multiple children.

However, if the surrogate mother is not willing to reduce, then they will implant one embryo at a time and keep repeating the procedure until one of them takes. This is obviously not preferable for the parents wanting the child, since it's much more expensive and could take much longer for them.

As for what happens to those embryos in the afterlife, only GOD knows. I will say that nothing dies on this planet without GOD's permission, so He's got everything completely under control.

Why does GOD allow abortions to continue if the practice is so horrible? Well GOD allowed child sacrifices in the Old Testament days to continue and that was a much, much more horrific practice than abortion. GOD put up with it for as long as He was willing to and then simply wiped out those civilizations to the point where historians are having trouble finding evidence that the civilizations even existed in the first place.

I think that's the future that we can look forward to here in America if we continue on the path we are going right now.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
For the surrogacies, they usually fertilize several embryos then implant up to 5 in the surrogate mother, in the hopes that at least one of them takes. If more than one takes, then they have agreements worked out in advance for stuff like that. They can either "reduce," which is a nice word for aborting all but one of the embryos or the parents could decide to take multiple children.

However, if the surrogate mother is not willing to reduce, then they will implant one embryo at a time and keep repeating the procedure until one of them takes. This is obviously not preferable for the parents wanting the child, since it's much more expensive and could take much longer for them.

As for what happens to those embryos in the afterlife, only GOD knows. I will say that nothing dies on this planet without GOD's permission, so He's got everything completely under control.

Why does GOD allow abortions to continue if the practice is so horrible? Well GOD allowed child sacrifices in the Old Testament days to continue and that was a much, much more horrific practice than abortion. GOD put up with it for as long as He was willing to and then simply wiped out those civilizations to the point where historians are having trouble finding evidence that the civilizations even existed in the first place.

I think that's the future that we can look forward to here in America if we continue on the path we are going right now.
Yeah.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:46 AM
adamt adamt is offline
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I think that's the future that we can look forward to here in America if we continue on the path we are going right now.
agreed for the most part but,

I don't know that He would completely wipe us out, I do think there are some good Christians yet, and we were founded as Christian.

I have said this to some people and they think i am nuts, but I am so sick and tired or the lukewarmness of american Christians, and the downright evil of the rest that I could almost beg for judgment evil though it would mean I would suffer too. I wouldn't mind suffering because I have developed such a disdain for the evil way our country is, and quite frankly I see no other way to fix it.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:07 AM
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Is God going to wipe us out, or is He going to let us just destroy ourselves this time?
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:32 PM
adamt adamt is offline
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Is God going to wipe us out, or is He going to let us just destroy ourselves this time?
personally I would rather be judged then continue on in a cesspool of sin....
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:31 PM
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In Amos 5:18-24, GOD warns believers against desiring judgment day:
Quote:
Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?

“I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.
But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream.
Basically, GOD seems to be saying, "You have no idea how bad it's going to be, so be careful what you wish for." The second portion makes it clear that GOD is referring to believers, or the church. The people who think they are going to be safe from judgment will be judged first.

If we follow the pattern of the Old Testament, we see that judgment comes to believers first, by the hand of unbelievers. GOD uses the unbelieving nations/people to destroy His followers for their sins. Then GOD passes His judgment on those same non-believers and their destruction is worse than what the believers experienced.

1 Peter 4:17 states that judgment begins at the house of GOD, which is the Church.

So I believe the Church will continue to lose ground in this world until it is no longer just unpopular to be a Christian, but life-threatening. From the outside looking in, it will appear that the world is winning its final victory against Christianity and exterminating all of His believers from the Earth; but GOD will be orchestrating it all as part of our judgment. Then, once that's complete, GOD will pass His final judgment upon the unbelievers. The Bible says that the suffering across the world will be so great during that time that people will be begging to die, but GOD will not allow them to die:

Revelation 9:6
Quote:
In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
The warning about GOD's judgment is so serious that Jesus even mentioned it while He was walking up to Golgotha to be crucified:

Luke 23:27-29
Quote:
And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’
Which seems to be a reference to Isaiah 13:16, in which GOD describes the Day of the LORD:
Quote:
Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.
Jesus was saying that GOD's judgment will be so severe that the women who have no children to mourn will be considered the fortunate ones.

So again, we should be careful what we wish for.
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