Christmas Should protestant Christians Celebrate?

Originally Posted by NateR

It's not about the relationship between a parent and child being affected. It's about that child's relationship with GOD. If there is even a risk of negatively affecting that, then it's not worth it.

In Mark 9:42, Jesus says:
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."

So, if you teach your children about Jesus Christ and Santa Claus on the same day every year, then eventually your children discover that you've been intentionally lying to them all along about Santa Claus, then how do you expect them to react to Jesus Christ? All you are doing is compromising your witness for Christ, which is more important than any temporary happiness they might get from believing in Santa Claus.

The primary purpose of parenting is not to provide a happy childhood, or a good education or produce productive members of society. Those are all good short term goals, but they are not the ultimate goal for which GOD initially designed parents. The purpose of parenting is to raise children who love GOD first and foremost. Everything else is secondary (even buying a house at the age of 21). So, with that in mind, how can any CHRISTIAN PARENT possibly defend the practice of lying to their kids about Santa Claus? Well, they can't, the practice is absolutely untenable from a Christian standpoint.

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Nothing in there saying that it's okay to tell a few little, "harmless" lies along the way.

Originally I asked those Christian parents, who allowed their children to believe in Santa, to present some Bible verses defending that decision... still waiting on those verses.

while you may think that parents that allow their children to believe in Santa should drop to their knees and beg God for forgiveness for committing a huge sin, i on the other hand think that people that dont allow their children to believe in Santa should drop to their knees and ask God for forgiveness....

and 1 of us you know is in the majority,and the other is in the minority...
where do you suppose each of us fits in.

Originally Posted by adamt

and how about the people that told nates bro he was a bad father?????

the people (or person) that told Nates brother he was a bad father for not allowing his children to believe in Santa was out of line...
the same way someone would be out of line for telling a person they were a bad parent for allowing their children to believe in Santa.

you see to me believing in God and believing in Santa are two totally different things...
kinda like the difference between throwing a bullet as opposed to shooting one out of a gun.

Originally Posted by bradwright

while you may think that parents that allow their children to believe in Santa should drop to their knees and beg God for forgiveness for committing a huge sin, i on the other hand think that people that dont allow their children to believe in Santa should drop to their knees and ask God for forgiveness....

and 1 of us you know is in the majority,and the other is in the minority...
where do you suppose each of us fits in.

What would someone who doesn't allow their kids to believe in Santa need to seek forgiveness for? Where is the sin that needs repenting?

You're right though... one of you would be in the majority... and one would be set apart.


What does God's Word teach us about being in the majority?

New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect. (emphasis added)

Or the same verse in a more accurate translation:

English Standard Version (©2001)
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

But... if you consider being like "everybody else" then you should prayerfully consider this:

New Living Translation (©2007)
You adulterers! Don't you realize that friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again: If you want to be a friend of the world, you make yourself an enemy of God.

And again... same verse with a more accurate translation.

English Standard Version (©2001)
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

It's obvious Nate stepped on a nerve and equally obvious you let your child believe in Santa. Rather than be defensive and go on the attack have you ever considered that the Holy Spirit was trying to convict of you something?

One of my favorite quotes is "The truth only hurts when it's supposed to". You've obviously been upset... perhaps you should consider why?

If you have any Scripture supporting your decision to encourage your child to believe in Santa I'd love to see it.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by bradwright

and 1 of us you know is in the majority,and the other is in the minority...
where do you suppose each of us fits in.

Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus says:
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Originally Posted by Chuck

It's obvious Nate stepped on a nerve and equally obvious you let your child believe in Santa. Rather than be defensive and go on the attack have you ever considered that the Holy Spirit was trying to convict of you something?

Thanks for posting that, I've been thinking the exact same thing ever since I saw how hostile towards me specifically Brad has been reacting in this thread. I was just worried that I would appear arrogant for mentioning that myself.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

i am sure there are really good Christians out there that wrote to santa as kids ... imo, i don't think that will prevent them from reaching salvation

Okay, then where is the Bible verse supporting your opinion? Or do you only hold that opinion because it's what you want to believe?

Nate, I'm curious what your thoughts are regarding the following statement made by James Dobson:

"I don't believe that those early, early fantasies really interfere with later Spiritual beliefs. I haven't seen any evidence of that, either in the life of my kids or in the lives of those I have had anything to do with. To allow a little bit of fantasy in a child's life enriches his intellectual life and I think he needs it. Children thrive on fantasy. It enriches our mental existence. Reality can be a pretty cold and hard place. I think children need the fantasy that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and other childhood mythical creatures bring."

I'm not making an argument one way or the other, just curious how you see it. I think he makes a strong point that children thrive on fantasy. I can see that possibly being a part of nurturing something to prepare them for the ultimate very real fantasy, which is salvation and redemption through Christ. I was raised in a pretty hardcore Christian atmosphere, but my parents definitely played the Santa game with my siblings and me. After coming to the realization that Santa was just a fun story, it never crossed my mind that my parents were somehow liars and robbed me of a greater spiritual conviction for Jesus. I would also warn that it is a dangerous game to assume the role of defining what is and is not sin. Fortunately for us we aren't tasked with that burden.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by huan

Nate, I'm curious what your thoughts are regarding the following statement made by James Dobson:

"I don't believe that those early, early fantasies really interfere with later Spiritual beliefs. I haven't seen any evidence of that, either in the life of my kids or in the lives of those I have had anything to do with. To allow a little bit of fantasy in a child's life enriches his intellectual life and I think he needs it. Children thrive on fantasy. It enriches our mental existence. Reality can be a pretty cold and hard place. I think children need the fantasy that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and other childhood mythical creatures bring."

I'm not making an argument one way or the other, just curious how you see it. I think he makes a strong point that children thrive on fantasy. I can see that possibly being a part of nurturing something to prepare them for the ultimate very real fantasy, which is salvation and redemption through Christ. I was raised in a pretty hardcore Christian atmosphere, but my parents definitely played the Santa game with my siblings and me. After coming to the realization that Santa was just a fun story, it never crossed my mind that my parents were somehow liars and robbed me of a greater spiritual conviction for Jesus. I would also warn that it is a dangerous game to assume the role of defining what sin is and is not. Fortunately for us we aren't tasked with that burden.

We don't need to define sin, the Bible does that for us. Lying is a sin. Regardless of the circumstances or the motives behind it. Regardless whether it actually causes harm or appears harmless. Lying is a sin. It is always a sin. Under no circumstances does GOD condone, endorse or approve of lying.

As for James Dobson, I would have to say that I disagree with his opinion on this. I do agree that children need fantasy and I have no problem with parents playing the Santa game with their children around Christmastime... as long as the kids understand that it is just a game and Santa Claus is not real. The minute parents begin to use Santa as some kind of behavior-manipulation tactic and go through great lengths to convince kids of his existence, that is when it crosses the line from a game into deception.

For everyone who did believe in Santa, how old were you when you learned the truth? Did you figure it out on your own, or did someone tell you? Who told you and what was your initial reaction once you realized that Santa wasn't real?

[VCURamFan]

I think I must have been around 5 or 6 when I stopped believing in Santa. I'm not really sure, but I think that a kid in my kindergarten glass said something, I told him he was an idiot, went home to tell my parents the funny story about the stupid kid & they broke the news to me!

I remember being disappointed, but was over it by the time school rolled around the next day.

[adamt]

Originally Posted by bradwright

the people (or person) that told Nates brother he was a bad father for not allowing his children to believe in Santa was out of line...
the same way someone would be out of line for telling a person they were a bad parent for allowing their children to believe in Santa.

you see to me believing in God and believing in Santa are two totally different things...
kinda like the difference between throwing a bullet as opposed to shooting one out of a gun.

Excellent point brad, at a critical point in their spiritual lives you tell children that Jesus is God who gives you the gift of eternal life and there is a man at the north pole that brings you gifts every year, then they find out the hard way that you have been lying to them for many years about the guy who brings gifts every year, what do you think that makes them think about the other guy you can't see that gives you gifts..... the more i think about it the more it seems to me to be a tool of the devil

Originally Posted by huan

Nate, I'm curious what your thoughts are regarding the following statement made by James Dobson:

"I don't believe that those early, early fantasies really interfere with later Spiritual beliefs. I haven't seen any evidence of that, either in the life of my kids or in the lives of those I have had anything to do with. To allow a little bit of fantasy in a child's life enriches his intellectual life and I think he needs it. Children thrive on fantasy. It enriches our mental existence. Reality can be a pretty cold and hard place. I think children need the fantasy that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and other childhood mythical creatures bring."

I'm not making an argument one way or the other, just curious how you see it. I think he makes a strong point that children thrive on fantasy. I can see that possibly being a part of nurturing something to prepare them for the ultimate very real fantasy, which is salvation and redemption through Christ. I was raised in a pretty hardcore Christian atmosphere, but my parents definitely played the Santa game with my siblings and me. After coming to the realization that Santa was just a fun story, it never crossed my mind that my parents were somehow liars and robbed me of a greater spiritual conviction for Jesus. I would also warn that it is a dangerous game to assume the role of defining what is and is not sin. Fortunately for us we aren't tasked with that burden.

even until recently i have fantasized about being an mma superstar, not so much lately, but nevertheless, i have as an adult, entertained those "fantasies", now do I believe I could be an mma superstar? NO!!!!

there is a huge difference between allowing fantasy, be it santa, cowboys and indians, tooth fairy, cops and robbers, or any other imagination inducing thing as a child, but it is not right to allow it to become dogma and considered to be a truth, it does not have to be "believed" to be enjoyed as a fantasy



but that still gets us back to the original point of this debate, and my answer is still that no where in the Bible are we commanded to celebrate or cmmemorate Jesus' birth, we are commanded to anticipate His second coming, celebrate the second advent, and even honor other things that we don't even give a second thought to anymore,

also, anything that takes glory away from God is not a good thing



I have agreed to pretty much everything Nate has said in this conversation except one thing, and that is that he said" the primary mission of every Christian is to spread the Gospel of Christ", and I don't know if he meant it as the primary mission or not, but I would argue that the primary mission of christians is to bring glory to God, and spreading the gospel does do that. But I also would argue that anything to take away glory form God is against our primary goal, and santa not only does not give glory to God but he takes it away


Santa actually meets the criteria for being a false prophet, he is a very loving and alluring figure that would dupe the most pious of christians if they were not careful,

Originally Posted by NateR

I would even go so far as to say that it is a sin for a parent to teach their children about Santa Claus. A parent who claims to be a Christian and does so ought to be ashamed of themselves and needs to repent of that sin and apologize to their children immediately. Any Christian parent on here who disagrees is free to post a Bible verse that would imply otherwise.

this is what i responded to....it didn't touch a nerve with me because i really dont care what anyone thinks of how i raised my son...he turned out just fine by anyone's standards.

what bothered me about this post was how you Nate attacked parents in general about how they may be raising their children according to your standards...

i just tried in my own clumsy way to point out that you dont have any children yet and when you do your thought process might change a bit about things like this...or not...but you truly wont know until you are in that position.

sometimes what you think God might disapprove of go's by the wayside when its a choice that brings happiness to someone else...even if it is only for a moment.

people sin every day Nate....you and I sin every day...but most times sin is a selfish act...parents letting their children believe in Santa is an unselfish act.

to discuss different beliefs is a very healthy way to try and understand what God truly wants out of us...but to make judgements and condemn people for sins such as this is going a bit to far...in my opinion of course.

now although i dont agree with your brother Nate with the way he looks at this particular situation i would never think for a moment he was a bad parent because of it..its just not the way i would do it.

in the end if parents letting children believe in Santa is the only sin they make then i'm sure their place in heaven will still be secure.