Christmas Should protestant Christians Celebrate?

[adamt]

Originally Posted by bradwright

so you say if you would have been in Germany when Hitler was rounding up all the Jews so they could be put to death you wouldn't have tried to hide some of them and then lied about it if confronted.
you instead would rather fight to a most certain death for you and everyone involved even if lying would have meant no one would be harmed.
interesting really...not sure i could say the same.

let me ask you this one,
if an army of a thousand came to your door and said they were charged with the unfortunate task of killing all the children in the land and then asked if you had any children in your house and you knew if you said no there are no children here that they would take your word for it without searching and just move on.
what would you tell them ?
no there are no children here,which you know is a lie.
or would you say yes there are children here and now i'm going to fight you and your army to the death to try and protect them.

lying is a fact of life..everyone does it at one time or another.

let me give you an example...

last week we buried my mother in law and the funeral was 300 miles from where my wife and i live.
we went and stayed at my father in laws place and my wife only took one outfit with her to wear....after she had gotten ready and we were about to walk out the door she asked me how she looked...well to be honest i didn't think the outfit looked good on her at all...so i had a bit of a dilemma..i could tell her the truth and upset her even more the day she was about to bury her mother or i could lie to her...what do you think i did ?

i'm just saying some times its not as easy as you think to tell the truth...at least not with out hurting some one in the process.

how do you know lying would save them, if you could tell the future like that you wouldn't have to be hiding them in your basement..... sad fact is, many jews were hidden, many lies told and they still died, only slower, harder, and with less honor

all i have to say to christians is that I am glad i am not on the same side as someone who says that lying is "just a fact of life",

and where is the line that you stop crossing? if you lie to save someone, would you murder to save someone? would you murder to do some other "good", then you are the same as hitler, he was doing some wrong to accompolish good, but it was all his opinion, that is why you need a universal standard that is followed without waiver, i.e. the bible



i could save countless lives by killing abortion doctors, should we condone that?


and still no one has answered the scenarios i set forth. and those are real case scenarios,


i hope this country never gets in a situation where it has to stand on it's principle cause it seems to me like not many people would be standing up for what is right, it seems they would rather try to lie their way out of it, instead of fighting for what is right


which is another scenario, say your child does something wrong and they lie about it,, their logic is that it is just a little white lie to prevent an arguement or them being disciplined.... i guess that is acceptable to you huh? it's for the greater good in their minds

Originally Posted by adamt

how do you know lying would save them, if you could tell the future like that you wouldn't have to be hiding them in your basement..... sad fact is, many jews were hidden, many lies told and they still died, only slower, harder, and with less honor

all i have to say to christians is that I am glad i am not on the same side as someone who says that lying is "just a fact of life",

and where is the line that you stop crossing? if you lie to save someone, would you murder to save someone? would you murder to do some other "good", then you are the same as hitler, he was doing some wrong to accompolish good, but it was all his opinion, that is why you need a universal standard that is followed without waiver, i.e. the bible



i could save countless lives by killing abortion doctors, should we condone that?


and still no one has answered the scenarios i set forth. and those are real case scenarios,


i hope this country never gets in a situation where it has to stand on it's principle cause it seems to me like not many people would be standing up for what is right, it seems they would rather try to lie their way out of it, instead of fighting for what is right


which is another scenario, say your child does something wrong and they lie about it,, their logic is that it is just a little white lie to prevent an arguement or them being disciplined.... i guess that is acceptable to you huh? it's for the greater good in their minds

so you wouldn't lie to save your own children's lives then...didn't think so.

Originally Posted by adamt

how do you know lying would save them, if you could tell the future like that you wouldn't have to be hiding them in your basement..... sad fact is, many jews were hidden, many lies told and they still died, only slower, harder, and with less honor

all i have to say to christians is that I am glad i am not on the same side as someone who says that lying is "just a fact of life",

and where is the line that you stop crossing? if you lie to save someone, would you murder to save someone? would you murder to do some other "good", then you are the same as hitler, he was doing some wrong to accompolish good, but it was all his opinion, that is why you need a universal standard that is followed without waiver, i.e. the bible



i could save countless lives by killing abortion doctors, should we condone that?
and still no one has answered the scenarios i set forth. and those are real case scenarios,


i hope this country never gets in a situation where it has to stand on it's principle cause it seems to me like not many people would be standing up for what is right, it seems they would rather try to lie their way out of it, instead of fighting for what is right


which is another scenario, say your child does something wrong and they lie about it,, their logic is that it is just a little white lie to prevent an arguement or them being disciplined.... i guess that is acceptable to you huh? it's for the greater good in their minds

are you really comparing lying to murder?

[adamt]

coward: A person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous, righteous or unpleasant things.

Originally Posted by bradwright

so you wouldn't lie to save your own children's lives then...didn't think so.

so you would lie instead of defend your rights? or would you lie then hand them over? yeah, thought so..

i don't see lying as anything noble, where do you get off that lying is some kind of heroic thing to do? is lying the best you can muster up if you had to defend your kids?

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

are you really comparing lying to murder?

yeah i guess so, God says they are both wrong, i say they are both wrong, so i am comparing them

i am comparing that if you are willing to compromise your morals where does it end?

Originally Posted by adamt

yeah i guess so, God says they are both wrong, i say they are both wrong, so i am comparing them

i am comparing that if you are willing to compromise your morals where does it end?

ok ... i am not a bible expert, and i am not saying lying is ok ... but weren't the ten commandments given by God as the capital sins or whatever .. again, not claiming to be a theologian and i could be wrong .. but is there no differentiation between sins?

[adamt]

Originally Posted by NateR

I think it's silly to say with any sort of confidence what we would do when faced with a life threatening situation. Because the truth is, unless you've been in that situation, then you cannot know with any certainty how you will react.

Simon Peter is a perfect example of this. He talked tough before Jesus was arrested; but when the pressure was on he folded and denied Christ three times.

Even if we were to stand firm in our faith against extreme opposition, it won't be because of who we are, it will be because of who GOD is.

i thought more about this, and considered that:

peter was crucified for Christ

peter was admonished for doing wrong after he denied Christ, not condoned for lying to save his own skin

I do think people can say with some relative confidence how they would act in certain situations, people do it all the time, and i do realize you are talking about life threatening situations, and i am giving examples of non life threatening situations but still unique situations, I try to think of threads that could be used as examples and in maybe the largest threads we ever have had on here, the huerta thread and the epic beard man threads, it is full of people who said what they would do in that situation

[adamt]

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

ok ... i am not a bible expert, and i am not saying lying is ok ... but weren't the ten commandments given by God as the capital sins or whatever .. again, not claiming to be a theologian and i could be wrong .. but is there no differentiation between sins?

well that is a whole nother debate,,, but all sin is evil in God's eyes, and lying is one of the ten commandments so either way....

Originally Posted by adamt

well that is a whole nother debate,,, but all sin is evil in God's eyes, and lying is one of the ten commandments so either way....

well there goes that argument .. LOL ...

[NateR]

Originally Posted by adamt

i thought more about this, and considered that:

peter was crucified for Christ

peter was admonished for doing wrong after he denied Christ, not condoned for lying to save his own skin

I do think people can say with some relative confidence how they would act in certain situations, people do it all the time, and i do realize you are talking about life threatening situations, and i am giving examples of non life threatening situations but still unique situations, I try to think of threads that could be used as examples and in maybe the largest threads we ever have had on here, the huerta thread and the epic beard man threads, it is full of people who said what they would do in that situation

I never claimed that Peter's lying was condoned or not sinful. Just citing what is probably the most famous Biblical example of someone's bravado not matching up with their actions when the chips were down.

My point is that it's silly to be claiming that you know how you would react in a real life and death situation.

I spent 10 years in the Army. I've been inside "hazardous duty" areas (the Army's term for former war zones) and I've even been shot at. However, I would still never make assumptions about how I would react during real combat.

Sure, someone's character in mundane times might be an indicator of their character during dangerous times, but the key word is might. The truth is, you don't know and you will never know until you are actually in that situation.

So, on this topic it's best to just not say anything at all.

[adamt]

Originally Posted by NateR

I never claimed that Peter's lying was condoned or not sinful. Just citing what is probably the most famous Biblical example of someone's bravado not matching up with their actions when the chips were down.

My point is that it's silly to be claiming that you know how you would react in a real life and death situation.

I spent 10 years in the Army. I've been inside "hazardous duty" areas (the Army's term for former war zones) and I've even been shot at. However, I would still never make assumptions about how I would react during real combat.

Sure, someone's character in mundane times might be an indicator of their character during dangerous times, but the key word is might. The truth is, you don't know and you will never know until you are actually in that situation.

So, on this topic it's best to just not say anything at all.

i can acquiesce to this


and i will retract my statements of 'what i would do', and rephrase them as, 'what one should do'