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  #121  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:07 PM
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You need to provide some proof that you are right before I even attempt to look for some proof that you are wrong. I'm waiting on you.
but i have proof...its in me and everybody i know personally.

but instead of trying your best to win an argument thats not winnable why dont you just smile and wish me a Merry Christmas....like i have to you.
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  #122  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:14 PM
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I don't even think that's the core of the issue. Even if it is not dangerous, my question is: is it beneficial? What long-term good could possibly come from allowing children to believe in Santa Claus?
I thought that was addressed already. Didn't someone post a quote (from Dr. Dobson?) abuot children needing fantasy & imagination? I might be misremembering, I'll go check.

EDIT: Yeah, huan posted it a few days (& about 10 pages! ) ago: http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=36

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I don't believe that those early, early fantasies really interfere with later Spiritual beliefs. I haven't seen any evidence of that, either in the life of my kids or in the lives of those I have had anything to do with. To allow a little bit of fantasy in a child's life enriches his intellectual life and I think he needs it. Children thrive on fantasy. It enriches our mental existence. Reality can be a pretty cold and hard place. I think children need the fantasy that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and other childhood mythical creatures bring.
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  #123  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:15 PM
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I thought that was addressed already. Didn't someone post a quote (from Dr. Dobson?) abuot children needing fantasy & imagination? I might be misremembering, I'll go check.
Isn't it possible to allow children to have fantasy and imagination without deception?
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  #124  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:20 PM
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Isn't it possible to allow children to have fantasy and imagination without deception?
As long as the child realizes that it's a fantasy, then is it a deception? Like Amy & Brad & others (including myself) has reported, we knew very early in our lives that Santa wasn't real, but we continued "believing" because it was fun. Very young children aren't able to comprehend the difference between reality & fantasy (that's why Peek-a-Boo works: when you put your hands in front of your face, they really do think you've left), so to try & explain Santa as a fantasy is like trying to explain that Big Bird & Oscar the Grouch are just muppets, yet no one is accusing Sesame Street of being a danger to children's spiritual development.
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  #125  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bradwright View Post
but i have proof...its in me and everybody i know personally.

but instead of trying your best to win an argument thats not winnable why dont you just smile and wish me a Merry Christmas....like i have to you.
Well, if you had worded it that way in the first place, then I would have left you alone.

Merry Christmas to you too!

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As long as the child realizes that it's a fantasy, then is it a deception? Like Amy & Brad & others (including myself) has reported, we knew very early in our lives that Santa wasn't real, but we continued "believing" because it was fun. Very young children aren't able to comprehend the difference between reality & fantasy (that's why Peek-a-Boo works: when you put your hands in front of your face, they really do think you've left), so to try & explain Santa as a fantasy is like trying to explain that Big Bird & Oscar the Grouch are just muppets, yet no one is accusing Sesame Street of being a danger to children's spiritual development.
Yeah, but Sesame Street characters aren't used as an extrinsic method of manipulating kids into "being good."

One thing I will say, at least Santa Claus has ties to an actual historical figure, who also ties into the message of Christianity. So there is some educational potential once you discard all the silliness. Characters like the Easter Bunny have no real Christian roots and are actually based on religious traditions that are decidedly non-Christian.

In the stories that you, Amy and Brad have posted, there is really not much to object to. Although you never really "believed" in Santa past a certain age, you simply played the game in order to get more stuff. There is a difference. I just wonder how many parents out there are using Santa as a manipulation tool and continuing to perpetuate the lie long after their kids should have figured out the truth.
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  #126  
Old 12-15-2011, 09:11 PM
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Yeah, but Sesame Street characters aren't used as an extrinsic method of manipulating kids into "being good."
Haha, how long has it been since you've watched Sesame Street? Every day has lessons
sharing & being kind, etc. Heck even Cookie Monster now sings "Cookies Are a Sometimes Food"!!
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
One thing I will say, at least Santa Claus has ties to an actual historical figure, who also ties into the message of Christianity. So there is some educational potential once you discard all the silliness. Characters like the Easter Bunny have no real Christian roots and are actually based on religious traditions that are decidedly non-Christian.
That's a good point. Have you ever heard Jim Gaffigan's take on holiday traditions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAxRVeKnTE

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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
In the stories that you, Amy and Brad have posted, there is really not much to object to. Although you never really "believed" in Santa past a certain age, you simply played the game in order to get more stuff. There is a difference. I just wonder how many parents out there are using Santa as a manipulation tool and continuing to perpetuate the lie long after their kids should have figured out the truth.
Yeah, I'm sure that there are a lot of parents abusing Santa, just like a lot are abusing McDonald's or TV or public schools or welfare or _____ or _____ or _____. It's sinful nature to pervert things for selfish goals.
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  #127  
Old 12-15-2011, 11:53 PM
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Nobody tell Nate or Dave about "Elf on the Shelf".............. Talk about a creepy Christmas toy used for manipulation of behavior!


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  #128  
Old 12-15-2011, 11:57 PM
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Haha, how long has it been since you've watched Sesame Street? Every day has lessons
sharing & being kind, etc. Heck even Cookie Monster now sings "Cookies Are a Sometimes Food"!!
That's a good point. Have you ever heard Jim Gaffigan's take on holiday traditions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAxRVeKnTE



Yeah, I'm sure that there are a lot of parents abusing Santa, just like a lot are abusing McDonald's or TV or public schools or welfare or _____ or _____ or _____. It's sinful nature to pervert things for selfish goals.
Did you know that everyone on Sesame Street can see Big Bird's friend, Snuffleupagus, now? Apparently they were afraid that it sent a bad message to kids that the adults didn't believe Big Bird about Snuffeupagus being real. They didn't want kids to get the idea that telling the truth might not be believed.

I loved the Snuffleupagus gags when I was a kid. Now he's ruined!


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  #129  
Old 12-16-2011, 01:03 AM
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Did you know that everyone on Sesame Street can see Big Bird's friend, Snuffleupagus, now? Apparently they were afraid that it sent a bad message to kids that the adults didn't believe Big Bird about Snuffeupagus being real. They didn't want kids to get the idea that telling the truth might not be believed.

I loved the Snuffleupagus gags when I was a kid. Now he's ruined!


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Snuffy was the greatest! WTF are they doing to my childhood???????
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  #130  
Old 12-16-2011, 04:19 PM
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Snuffy was the greatest! WTF are they doing to my childhood???????


Excellent posts, Ben. I agree with your thoughts on this and also those of Dr. Dobson's that huan and you quoted previously:

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Quote:
I don't believe that those early, early fantasies really interfere with later Spiritual beliefs. I haven't seen any evidence of that, either in the life of my kids or in the lives of those I have had anything to do with. To allow a little bit of fantasy in a child's life enriches his intellectual life and I think he needs it. Children thrive on fantasy. It enriches our mental existence. Reality can be a pretty cold and hard place. I think children need the fantasy that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and other childhood mythical creatures bring.
I think it's a child's family/home life, their "reality", that is going to impact their spirituality, not any short-term belief in Santa.

I wonder if Walt Disney and Steve Jobs believed in Santa when they were kids?
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Last edited by Bonnie; 12-16-2011 at 04:56 PM.
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