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  #21  
Old 04-20-2012, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
really though .. imo a universal health care program is very important for developed nations .. sure, you are going to say, the US didn't become the strongest nation by having it or you have gotten this far without it .. but it doesn't mean you can't be better ... do i like the obama model? not really, i think ours works great ... we don't have to buy insurance .... it is built into our tax dollars .. there is still the option of going to private clinics if you want .. and if you have insurance through work, you get certain upgrades etc ... you get a healthcard and you show it when you go to the hospital or doctor .. it doesn't cover prescriptions or dental ... but if you have a good insurance through work, that covers it ...
So your healthcare system "works great" but you still need to purchase private insurance if you want everything covered? Doesn't sound like it works that good to me.

Anyways, the healthcare debate is secondary to the real issue here: Does the US government have the right to require private citizens to purchase a product? If the answer is yes, then where does that end? Can the government then require everyone to switch over to compact florescent light bulbs, or maybe even require all of its citizens to trade in their cars and trucks for hybrids?

Even if this healthcare law was not a total disaster, would surrendering our freedom to choose for ourselves whether we want medical insurance be worth the trade off? If you say yes, then I don't think you understand the concept of freedom.
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2012, 10:26 PM
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Why is my health the responsibility of anybody but myself?

Don't get me wrong, with the cost of "health care", we are all better off dead.
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  #23  
Old 04-22-2012, 06:23 PM
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I don't think you understand the concept of freedom.
Understand the concept of Freedom...or the concept of the American Constitution?

Total Freedom is anarchy, and contrary what many Americans say, the Constitution doesnt promote that. Equally so, the Constitution is reasonably clear with its boundaries on Government interaction...forcing the whole population to do anything except pay taxes, and possibly vote, should be beyond the control of the Federal Government...and aruguably beyond the control of the State Government.

The first issue for many Americans is their inability to separate the two systems of Government, and their miscalculation on putting emphasis on Federal over State. Rather then thinking of ONE Government and many Councils...they oughta be thinking Fifty odd Governments, and a Council representing all of those individual Governments. Your rules and laws should come from the State...the Federal Governments job is to manage the State, Represent the collective to the international community, and provide protection, with force where needed...they also are allowed to meddle in things like Money, and things that physically cross state boarders...for example Transport. Beyond that, a technical interpretation says that they should not be doing very much...earlier in your History they didnt even meet every day...one has to ask what a council whose job is so far removed from the everyday life of people, is actually conveneing so often about...its things like this Health Care reform, which, litterally it shouldnt even be discussing

The Second Issue for Americans is the ideal that Freedom, even constitutionally speaking, doesnt mean, and never did, mean freedom to do anything at all. You do not live in a free country, or else you wouldnt pay taxes. The true Freedom is from the possible tyrany of large scale Government and Freedom under GOD to be able to express yourself and worship as you choose. It is NOT freedom from the law, it is NOT Freedom of Religion, and it doesnt apply to criminals

The laws should be made and maintained on a State to State Level, this is small scale Government...incidently, had your forefathers known that your bipartisanship would begin to equal the sort of division seen in Christondom, they may well have written that the President MUST be independant....as some of your earlier Presidents were...imagine, a man unable to be pigeon holed into an obvious party...imagine how suddenly the votes would matter a lot more, and any veto would be a moral judgement, not a petty point score of party politics.

I have to warn you that if you look back over three hundred years, your constitution is being viewed in a different and part false light by the majority of people, and your politics is far to polarized to be of benefit to the individual citizenry...ive seen it as much on this forum, where party lines generally shouldnt matter...but do...its like a silent civil war constantly between democrats and republicans. I really dont think thats what George Washington had in mind, long term...but you have larger problems...if your Supreme Court can rule that this is constitutional, then you have to ask yourself, have they strayed from the constitution too far...and if so...who holds them to account? In an institution where political preferences are at the forethought of any appointment, all you do is move the congressional battles into a real life Court....so the Obamarites have won in congress...can the Judges who are sworne in allegience by their appointment, do his bidding, or not.

I have to say, this is the only situation I've known in history where a document can be rewritten pragmatically without the words changing. In every other case, constitutions are overturned by revolution and replaced. Noone has replaced the constitution. The society has managed to keep hold of the original document, but subvert it by changing the paradigmn. How THAT happened, without complete revolution I dont know...when did Americans collectively forget and collectively aggree on this new meaning? I would have guessed the World War...except America didnt loose enough men proportionately to have wiped out a zeitgeist...I Cant answer that question, and its bugging me. So I am asking those who understand the constitution...When did this problem begin...where can you say, before this point we adhered to the original pragmatics of the document...because only then can you peacefull subvert it back again...which, short of a revolution you probably cant do now...and you wouldnt want to do that, because that would mean having to physically reject and rewrite a document that isnt at fault. I say there is nothing wrong with the American Consitution, The Problem is with the American People. The State Governments need a kick up the arse, and the Federal Government needs to be reigned in...

...and if you want to make it more perfect, NEVER ellect a President who isnt Independant, who hasnt served at least three to five years in the military, and make damn sure he is a Christian, not just one in lips, but one in heart. Make sure all your Supreme Court Judges are Christian, and Constitutionalists...and give congress a three day working week in washington outside of the President and court, and let them spend the rest of the time back where they belong, with their constituents, at a grass roots, local level. That way your Great Nation will live up to what I truely believe are Great Foundations. Your slipping now, dont fall.
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  #24  
Old 04-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
So your healthcare system "works great" but you still need to purchase private insurance if you want everything covered? Doesn't sound like it works that good to me.

Anyways, the healthcare debate is secondary to the real issue here: Does the US government have the right to require private citizens to purchase a product? If the answer is yes, then where does that end? Can the government then require everyone to switch over to compact florescent light bulbs, or maybe even require all of its citizens to trade in their cars and trucks for hybrids?

Even if this healthcare law was not a total disaster, would surrendering our freedom to choose for ourselves whether we want medical insurance be worth the trade off? If you say yes, then I don't think you understand the concept of freedom.
no, i don't need to purchase anything .. i have insurance through work, so i just get things upgraded if i want ... if i didn't have a job, i'd still have healthcare available to me the same as everyone else ...
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  #25  
Old 04-23-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
no, i don't need to purchase anything .. i have insurance through work, so i just get things upgraded if i want ... if i didn't have a job, i'd still have healthcare available to me the same as everyone else ...
So do people here. Already. Free. All you have to do is sign up. Your choice.
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  #26  
Old 04-23-2012, 07:22 PM
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Unbelievable this has to go to the Supreme Court for its' Constitutionality. It shouldn't have went through Congress in the first place.
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  #27  
Old 04-24-2012, 09:31 PM
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It was just getting good and you guys had to break it up like Mazzagati in Lesnar/Mir 1....

I love an old school Nate vs Dave battle!

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