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Old 10-07-2011, 05:41 PM
Dethbob
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Default Does anyone know about the Pearls?

The death of a girl in this area is being linked to the book “How to Train Up Your Child” by Michael and Debi Pearl, I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the book or the Pearls' ministry.

http://www.goskagit.com/news/local_n...cc4c03286.html

Quote:
Couple arraigned in adopted daughter's death

According to court records, Hana Williams died of hypothermia May 12, not long after she was found laying face down in the Williams' back yard just after midnight. After spending several hours outside in the rain, the hypothermia was brought on by malnutrition, caused by regular deprivation of food, medical experts ruled.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/131234864.html

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A witness told investigators that the Williams got their ideas for the disciplinary measures from a book, “How to Train Up Your Child,” which recommends switchings with a plumbing tool, cold water baths, withholding food and putting children out in cold weather as forms of punishment.
I was acquainted with this guy a couple of years ago and he seemed like a fairly normal guy, I met his wife and kids and they did not seem psychotic or abused. He spoke lovingly about the new kids and all the work he and his wife were doing to welcome them and give them a good start. His wife was learning sign language and they were both learning the native language of the kids. He mentioned the abuse the kids had suffered before coming here, and how he would never do things like that. I’m having a hard time imagining how it could have gone from that to this.
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Old 10-07-2011, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dethbob View Post
The death of a girl in this area is being linked to the book “How to Train Up Your Child” by Michael and Debi Pearl, I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the book or the Pearls' ministry.

http://www.goskagit.com/news/local_n...cc4c03286.html



http://www.komonews.com/news/local/131234864.html


I was acquainted with this guy a couple of years ago and he seemed like a fairly normal guy, I met his wife and kids and they did not seem psychotic or abused. He spoke lovingly about the new kids and all the work he and his wife were doing to welcome them and give them a good start. His wife was learning sign language and they were both learning the native language of the kids. He mentioned the abuse the kids had suffered before coming here, and how he would never do things like that. I’m having a hard time imagining how it could have gone from that to this.
OMG, they tortured the poor little girl. What's wrong with these people? I hadn't even heard of the case and it is local.


Quote:
The Williams had adopted Hana from Ethiopia in 2008 as a diseased little girl to begin a new life in America.

Instead, according to court records, she was beaten, starved, forced to sleep in a barn at times and deprived of love and basic necessities.
I don't know anything about this "How to train up a child" but if these were in fact the techniques suggested - these people are monsters as well.

From their book:

Quote:
“Select your instrument according to the child’s size,” writes Pearl. “For the under one year old, a little, ten to twelve-inch long, willowy branch (stripped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient. Sometimes alternatives have to be sought. A one-foot ruler, or its equivalent in a paddle, is a sufficient alternative. For the larger child, a belt or larger tree branch is effective.” Additional advice from their Web site: Switching with a length of quarter-inch plumbing supply line is a “real attention-getter.”


While spanking your child and she cries and is upset about it, Michael Pearl says this:

“When she screams or flees, calmly follow through by physically subduing her. Sit on her, if you have to, and slowly explain that you will not tolerate this resistance. Explain in a normal tone (She will eventually stop screaming and listen) that you are going to give her, say, five licks for the original offense and an additional two licks for the fit. Slowly apply the five licks, counting out loud. When I say slowly, I mean with a thirty second gap between each lick and a calm explanation to the screaming child that you are not the least impressed except that you are going to spank harder and she still gets the additional two licks plus one more for her ongoing screaming. When you have finally arrived at five well- anticipated and carefully counted licks, say, “OK, your spanking is over; that is the five licks you got for hitting your brother, but now I must give you two more for trying to run away.” Give her one lick and say, “Now, that is one of the licks for running away; you have one more coming.” Give the second lick, and then calmly and slowly explain that all her licks are over now, except for the one additional lick she incurred for continuing to scream during the spanking. After you have finished, tell her that you are going to let her up now, if she stops screaming, otherwise you are going to give her one additional lick. If she stops, or at least makes a great effort to, then you have won. You may never have to go through this horrible time again. But, if she is continuing to scream in defiance, you have the option of continuing to warn and spank, or of ceasing here with a parting warning: “Next time you better not run and throw a fit; for if you do, you will only get more licks and harder ones.”
Sick.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:17 PM
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Sick.
I see nothing wrong with the spanking advice given, except for the idea of spanking a kid that is less than a year old. But ONLY because I'm not sure that a mind that young can make the connection between the punishment and the behavior you are trying to correct. So spanking a child that young might just be a waste of time. I would assume 2 years old would be when spanking would really start to become an effective punishment; but obviously that would depend on the individual child.

As for the other stuff:
cold water baths - as long as the water doesn't go below 50º Fahrenheit and they are not left in the water for more than a few minutes, it seems like it would be effective.

food deprivation - skipping one meal is not going to kill any kid, but no more than 12 hours without food at the absolute maximum.

putting kids out in cold weather - this just seems like a bad idea all around; the only way I would consider this to be safe would be if one of the parents stays outside with the kid at all times and the children are appropriately dressed for the weather.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:49 PM
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The paragraph Flo quoted seems very sadistic to me. I can’t imagine a situation that would justify that kind of behavior. I have three very spirited boys and I have never needed more than a swat and a stern word to get their full attention and obedience. Holding a child down and methodically taunting and hitting them over and over is not parenting, I don’t know what that is.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:52 PM
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Oh geez!
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
I see nothing wrong with the spanking advice given, except for the idea of spanking a kid that is less than a year old. But ONLY because I'm not sure that a mind that young can make the connection between the punishment and the behavior you are trying to correct. So spanking a child that young might just be a waste of time. I would assume 2 years old would be when spanking would really start to become an effective punishment; but obviously that would depend on the individual child.

As for the other stuff:
cold water baths - as long as the water doesn't go below 50º Fahrenheit and they are not left in the water for more than a few minutes, it seems like it would be effective.

food deprivation - skipping one meal is not going to kill any kid, but no more than 12 hours without food at the absolute maximum.

putting kids out in cold weather - this just seems like a bad idea all around; the only way I would consider this to be safe would be if one of the parents stays outside with the kid at all times and the children are appropriately dressed for the weather.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dethbob View Post
The paragraph Flo quoted seems very sadistic to me. I can’t imagine a situation that would justify that kind of behavior. I have three very spirited boys and I have never needed more than a swat and a stern word to get their full attention and obedience. Holding a child down and methodically taunting and hitting them over and over is not parenting, I don’t know what that is.
Every kid is different. I used to always want to get my spankings over with as quickly as possible, but my parents had to frequently chase my brother down and physically restrain him while they spanked him.

My dad and mom used to always count out every spank and would explain exactly what we were getting spanked for. That's not taunting, it's instruction.
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Old 10-07-2011, 10:49 PM
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Nate, I was spanked by my folks and I'm not against it either. That's different than hitting or what these people recommend - using a plumbing tool. They talk about it being so great to hit your kids with because it doesn't draw blood.

Kids need love not cold baths, food deprivation and hitting with a plumbing tool. Save that stuff for military school.

Sick, IMO.
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Old 10-08-2011, 12:51 AM
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My dad used a belt or a wooden rod to spank us with. I don't think using a hand would have caused us enough pain to make us pay attention.

If I had kids, I don't think I could ever use the cold bath or standing outside in the cold form of punishment. Those seem a little odd to me. I guess there are ways that they could be used effectively, but it would have to be a pretty special case.

As for food deprivation, I have no problem with it if it breaks the kid out of being a picky eater (again, as long as the child doesn't go more than 12 hours without food). With my parents, we ate what they decided to prepare for us or we didn't eat until the next meal came around. Not liking a particular meal was no excuse for not eating all of it. But I guess that's not really considered "food deprivation."

When it comes right down to it, however, the parents of that girl are 100% responsible for the death of their daughter, not the authors of the book. I'm not going to pass judgement on the contents of the book itself based on a few out of context excerpts posted by the media. The Bible commands parents to "train up" their children and if the Pearls' book is truly based on Biblical principles, then it's no wonder it is coming under fire and being blamed for this girl's death.
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Old 10-08-2011, 03:00 PM
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I remember plenty of wooden spoons and 'boards of education' from my childhood and don't feel that I am any worse for it. However I do not remember having learned anything from any particular spanking, other than to stay the heck away from Mom when she's in a mood. I think if a strong method of discipline is called for and spanking is applied in a thoughtful way it can be very effective, but if it is applied aventure it becomes just more crap kids have to deal with.

It is a different matter entirely for a ‘Man of God’ to instruct people, who are desperately seeking advice, to develop a habit of inflicting pain without mercy on defenseless little ones. Now I’ll concede that I have not read the book and do not know much about the Pearls, but out of context or not those quotes do not sound Biblical to me. I also understand that the media is not on our side, and they certainly don’t need the help of ‘Christians’ who seem to embody and confirm the worst possible caricatures of Gods people.
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Old 10-08-2011, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dethbob View Post
I remember plenty of wooden spoons and 'boards of education' from my childhood and don't feel that I am any worse for it. However I do not remember having learned anything from any particular spanking, other than to stay the heck away from Mom when she's in a mood. I think if a strong method of discipline is called for and spanking is applied in a thoughtful way it can be very effective, but if it is applied aventure it becomes just more crap kids have to deal with.

It is a different matter entirely for a ‘Man of God’ to instruct people, who are desperately seeking advice, to develop a habit of inflicting pain without mercy on defenseless little ones. Now I’ll concede that I have not read the book and do not know much about the Pearls, but out of context or not those quotes do not sound Biblical to me. I also understand that the media is not on our side, and they certainly don’t need the help of ‘Christians’ who seem to embody and confirm the worst possible caricatures of Gods people.
Well, my parents rarely ever hit us out of anger. In fact, I can't think of a single example of being spanked just because mom or dad was in a bad mood. They always explained to us exactly why we were getting spanked and, if we were getting spanked for multiple offenses, then we would know when the spanking for one offense stopped and the spanking for the next one began. At the end of the spanking we would have to tell them exactly what we had done wrong to deserve it; so there was never any doubt in our mind why it was happening.

My parents were far from perfect, but I've always thought that the way they handled punishment in our house was very well-done for the most part.

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It is a different matter entirely for a ‘Man of God’ to instruct people, who are desperately seeking advice, to develop a habit of inflicting pain without mercy on defenseless little ones.
This comment really makes no sense to me in the context of the topic at hand. How are the children "desperately seeking advice"? Spanking is about punishment for wrongdoing and inflicting pain on children is usually the most effective way to get their undivided attention. The instruction comes from teaching them the lesson that their actions have consequences. There is nothing un-Biblical about that at all:

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

This is where that popular saying "spare the rod, spoil the child" comes from, but that phrase is not actually in the Bible. But, as you can see, GOD's verdict on parents who don't discipline their children is a little more severe.
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