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Old 09-09-2011, 10:12 PM
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I stayed up until 12:30 A.M. last night reading After America. I almost finished (page 332, less than 20 pages left) but fell asleep. It is quite depressing. Should I get a prescription for Zoloft or Prozac?
I haven't started it yet, PTM, but I knew it was fairly gloomy.
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2011, 10:56 PM
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Tyburn, I think it is admirable that you have the intellectual curiosity to try to understand our form of government. I don't know why Chris F responded to you with that tone.

Hillsdale College is offering a free "Introduction to the Constitution" internet course. It starts in a few days. Here is a link with information and a registration page for this free course: http://constitution.hillsdale.edu/pa...edium=redirect
If its free I am going to do it! Thanks
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:00 PM
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I stayed up until 12:30 A.M. last night reading After America. I almost finished (page 332, less than 20 pages left) but fell asleep. It is quite depressing. Should I get a prescription for Zoloft or Prozac?
The negative side effects are less for some drugs in the prozac family.

I know WAY too much about Zoloft...most people who try that drug cant stick the side effects...you have about 6 weeks to 2 months of chronic side effects BEFORE you see any mood enhancement.

However...the added bonus of Zoloft is that its eqaully anti anxiety...

soooo...if your just depressed about America...Prozac...if you are depressed AND now Skeeeeered...Zoloft

I first started on Sertraline December 5th 2003....
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Old 09-10-2011, 07:20 AM
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How can that be true? that would leave Congress unable to pass any Acts of Law over any of the States.

Because the above says that the Federal Government is not really a Government, but a collective representation of Each State to the rest of the World.

...with the exception of public transport.

If that was True then how does the Supreme Court Govern? That list includes nothing on crime and punishment...therefore presumably thats entirely State Driven...therefore the Supreme Court would ONLY be an Appeals Court! Is it only an Appeals Court???

The above also does NOT say that States need to contribute financially on a Union level...nor does it give the Federal Government the right to demand anything.

If what your saying is wholly true then Each State should be completely Soverign...AS Soverign as Europe is now. Are you SURE your Federal Government was only supposed to be a looose association of soverign countries???

I thought it was pretty much created...I mean if you look at the history, Union Membership is aspired to the second a piece of land is "annexed" It would seem like the individual States formed specifically so they could become a Union...never conceiving long term self sufficiency...with the exception of Texas....and...Hawaii....and probably Alaska due to geography.

Sorry you dont feel it important to talk to me about this. I listened to some of his ramble about the Jobs Act...I didnt listen to it all, coz he went on, and on, and on, and on...and I got bored So I just told you what I understood of it...it sounds like you might be polar extremes...I dont understand why if what you say is wholly true, the State Governments dont exercise their powers...citizens might be fooled...but politicians in State Governments shouldnt have that excuse...and I cant understand why they would wanted to denude themselves of their powers...unless never had what you make out they did.

sorry for being dumb on the subject Sometimes I think maybe I should not bother to give my opinion or try and understand coz at the heart of it you Americans are actually quite insular. As per usual, I'm an outsider to be dumped when things get serious
That is Okay Dave. For years we as a country have ignored our own form of government. The feds as intended by the constitution were not suppose to make laws that force a state to d something nationally. Each state is suppose to be a sovereign body. Sadly we are a mere shell of that. The real reason behind the "Civil War" was the power of the feds ve the power of the states. So since 1861 we have stppoed being the USA and have instead became a nanny state
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Old 09-10-2011, 07:23 AM
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Chris, some of the money that goes to schools is from state and local tax revenues, but the Federal government has been funding public education for decades. The NCLB Act of 2001 for example was another amendment of the Improving America's Schools act of 1994 which was another amendment of the Education Consolidation and Improvement Act of 1981 which was an amendment of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965.

The ESEA Act of 1965 created the following:

Title I—Financial Assistance To Local Educational Agencies For The Education Of Children Of Low-Income Families
Title II—School Library Resources, Textbooks, and other Instructional Materials
Title III—Supplementary Educational Centers and Services
Title IV—Educational Research And Training
Title V—Grants To Strengthen State Departments Of Education
Title VI—General Provisions

Since then, they have gone all the way up to Title X via the NCLB.

Federal education funds are distributed to the SEA (State Education Agency), then to the LEA (Local Education Agency - I.E. "School District"), then to the schools themselves. At least 90% of all funds are spent at the school level. The SEA and LEA can choose to hold back up to 5% of the funds distributed to them (depending on the specifics of the text within each provision). The NCLB is huge and crazy, but there's quite a bit of logic to it when you get into the nitty gritty of it.

Obama has already created a blueprint for the next act and the funding allocated for the programs is somewhat strange, but his requests for FY 2012 are much higher than they have been in the past with regards to education. Where he plans to get the money for this, I have no idea.

Without this Federal funding that has been supporting schools for years, it's likely we would have either been paying for private schools or had a lesser/no education because the entire purpose of the ESEA Act "bill aims to shorten the achievement gaps between students by providing each child with fair and equal opportunities to achieve an exceptional education". Basically, equal education rights for all American citizens came directly as a result of this act. This of course is debatable, but it does provide free elementary and secondary education for all of us.

I keep a close eye on this stuff because I sell library books for a living, so education budgets, where they've been and where they're going are always of interest to me.
Exactly the fed have put their nose in it since Jimmy Carter started the dept of ed in the 60's and ever since then our nations test scores and status in the world has went down the crapper. The feds have no constitutional right doing anything outside the bounds of the US Constitution. I am open to see where in the Constitution you think they do have the right. I am curious.
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Old 09-10-2011, 07:26 AM
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Yeah, what's up with that, Chris?



I heard about that this morning when I was listening to Steyn *swoon* and thought it sounded very worthwhile.
I said "with all due respect" I did not know it was a bad tone. Typically I respond with a lot more venom than that. I knew Dave was making sincere inquires this is why I tried to be nicer. I teach Government in college once and in while and 90% or more do not even know we are a republic. It is sad.
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Old 09-10-2011, 04:27 PM
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I teach Government in college once and in while and 90% or more do not even know we are a republic. It is sad.
Yes, it is. I knew we were a republic but I hadn't read the declaration and constitution until a couple years ago (I have a little pocket edition).

I didn't know you were a teacher, that's super.
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  #18  
Old 09-10-2011, 05:14 PM
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: The feds as intended by the constitution were not suppose to make laws that force a state to d something nationally.
I had no idea about that

I assumed that each state was a soverign body within its own boarders...but that because each State is Unionized, the Union where possible would obviously create nationwide laws which would supercede States...hence why Congress have any power...all the States decide on a national, cross states acts. But I thought the power lies with those Representatives of each State.

Now in Europe, the Minister of The European Parliament, has about as much clout as an Ambassidor...because his Role there is to specifically represent his version of the British view...the European Parliament is seen as a battle of the Soverignties...and whatever rules they make, the State within reason can tell them to bog off!

Therefore the power brokers are in the Governments of each country NOT in the European Parliament. I had no idea that The United States was supposed to be THAT looose. I mean...We dont think of Europe as a Federal State...but your founding Fathers would recognise it as exactly that...because it sounds to me that your telling me each State is an independant Country, and that those Representatives are supposed to be bartering on behalf of their State...NOT working as a Collective, which is what they seem to be doing.

We dont see ourselves as an extention of Brussels...but I suspect a lot of your State Governments see themselves as the local office of the Federal Government...and THATS the unconstitutional bit...if I understand you correctly.

I still dont understand what stops them from taking power back and asserting authority. Do they not realize they have power in their own right?? I suppose if they assumed they were representating the Federal Government, rather then Representing TO the Federal Government...they would see no difference between their own Governing, and the Federal. Making them...basically Glorified Councils rather then Governments. In essence they are making themselves "local Government" and considering themselves collectively as "national Government" when they should consider themselves as "National Government" and the Federal Government should honnestly be thought of as international...because if each State is completely Soverign. (minus the roads and defence) then America shouldnt be thought of as a Country, but an International Conglomeration of American Independants.

I tell you...if this ideal of America ever reasserted...the President, Congress, and Senate would suddenly be mightly powerLESS
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:36 PM
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I had no idea about that

I assumed that each state was a soverign body within its own boarders...but that because each State is Unionized, the Union where possible would obviously create nationwide laws which would supercede States...hence why Congress have any power...all the States decide on a national, cross states acts. But I thought the power lies with those Representatives of each State.

Now in Europe, the Minister of The European Parliament, has about as much clout as an Ambassidor...because his Role there is to specifically represent his version of the British view...the European Parliament is seen as a battle of the Soverignties...and whatever rules they make, the State within reason can tell them to bog off!

Therefore the power brokers are in the Governments of each country NOT in the European Parliament. I had no idea that The United States was supposed to be THAT looose. I mean...We dont think of Europe as a Federal State...but your founding Fathers would recognise it as exactly that...because it sounds to me that your telling me each State is an independant Country, and that those Representatives are supposed to be bartering on behalf of their State...NOT working as a Collective, which is what they seem to be doing.

We dont see ourselves as an extention of Brussels...but I suspect a lot of your State Governments see themselves as the local office of the Federal Government...and THATS the unconstitutional bit...if I understand you correctly.

I still dont understand what stops them from taking power back and asserting authority. Do they not realize they have power in their own right?? I suppose if they assumed they were representating the Federal Government, rather then Representing TO the Federal Government...they would see no difference between their own Governing, and the Federal. Making them...basically Glorified Councils rather then Governments. In essence they are making themselves "local Government" and considering themselves collectively as "national Government" when they should consider themselves as "National Government" and the Federal Government should honnestly be thought of as international...because if each State is completely Soverign. (minus the roads and defence) then America shouldnt be thought of as a Country, but an International Conglomeration of American Independants.

I tell you...if this ideal of America ever reasserted...the President, Congress, and Senate would suddenly be mightly powerLESS
The way it was intended was each state made laws and as you said they were to be for the states border. Federal laws which do supercede states would have to be in line wiht the powers it is deleagted by the US COnstitution or the people (amendment change or by US senator who used to be elected by state legislatures not popular vote) Those laws typicall were for interstate commerce, interstate trade (this is why one state DL can work if you are driving in another state) But what is not suppose to happen is things like Education laws, drug laws, abortion laws. Crime is national thus the reason search and seizure laws are in their. Speech and religion etc are national so thus the reason the 1 st is there. But anything not mentioned in the constitution specifically is reserved for the states (10th amendment) So education laws are not there, drugs use is not in there, abortion is not in there, up until FDR federal taxation was not in there. If the feds could make laws that force every state to act one way there would have been no need to pass an amendment for Prohibition in the 20's all they would have had to do is pass a law like they did for pot and crack etc etc. But they did because the fed could not legislate states. Even at that time several states already had prohibition laws. In fact even today some counties have prohibition laws in their counties or in some cases one day a week etc etc.

Hope this helps a little. There is a lot to absorb. But what you see in America today is not how the country was founded. The founding fathers feared a large central government. Sadly we have devolved to being that.
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:48 PM
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The way it was intended was each state made laws and as you said they were to be for the states border. Federal laws which do supercede states would have to be in line wiht the powers it is deleagted by the US COnstitution or the people (amendment change or by US senator who used to be elected by state legislatures not popular vote) Those laws typicall were for interstate commerce, interstate trade (this is why one state DL can work if you are driving in another state) But what is not suppose to happen is things like Education laws, drug laws, abortion laws. Crime is national thus the reason search and seizure laws are in their. Speech and religion etc are national so thus the reason the 1 st is there. But anything not mentioned in the constitution specifically is reserved for the states (10th amendment) So education laws are not there, drugs use is not in there, abortion is not in there, up until FDR federal taxation was not in there. If the feds could make laws that force every state to act one way there would have been no need to pass an amendment for Prohibition in the 20's all they would have had to do is pass a law like they did for pot and crack etc etc. But they did because the fed could not legislate states. Even at that time several states already had prohibition laws. In fact even today some counties have prohibition laws in their counties or in some cases one day a week etc etc.

Hope this helps a little. There is a lot to absorb. But what you see in America today is not how the country was founded. The founding fathers feared a large central government. Sadly we have devolved to being that.
Tell me...if the constitution was perfect...why would it need ammendments...and...can they still ammend it today?

I mean...what body can ammend it? surely only the Federal Government...but they should not be touching it...because the whole idea of it, is to keep the Federal Government small and confined...as soon as the Federal Government can change the constitution...well...it defeats the object.

So...I am not certain about these "ammendments" not certain of their legitamacy, not in favour of anyone having the ability to do that....I mean look at the House of Lords

Originally the House of Lords was a completely independant body of citizens who were important historcially, unchanging, unellected. They had to approve anything passed by the Commons for law.

What did the Commons do? it decided to "reform" the House of Lords...kicked out most of the oldies...and allowed successive Governments to appoint members to the House...so what did each Government do?? well appoint people who they knew would approve their policies...thus...what the •••• is the point of having an independant house to stop an ellected dictatorship from doing whatever it wants?

So now they dont usually have to worry, because at the start of each new Government, the House begins to fill with the appropriate political peers, and bobs ya bumcheek! all their laws, approved by their own hand selected Lords.

Checks and Ballences...Commons and Lords...have become Commons, and Commons mark Two.

You dont want your Federal Government to be allowed to touch the constitution or they will change it in their favour....What? Not allowed to make State Policy on Education...I know, Mr President...why not write a new ammendment, saying Federal Government allowed to make State policy on Education....and suddenly...the consitution is not what it was

To have stuck by an unshifting constitution for nearly three and a half centuries has never truely been done before...do you realize that?
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