The Doctrine of Election - John MacArthur

[Play The Man]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

A good 80 percent of Anglicans wouldnt believe that we dont follow any articals really because our spectrum reaches from pentecostal to Catholic without Rome

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your post, but it doesn't seem like you are upset that your denomination has degraded to Sheilaism.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Chris F

You are citing Calvinism not scripture.

Nope, I'm pretty sure that it Scripture that I am posting. If it wasn't in the Bible, I wouldn't believe it.

The simple fact is that the Bible clearly mentions GOD's choosing people, the elect, and predestination. I don't see how you can refute that.

Like I mentioned before, I was raised Baptist, but I never received what I considered to be a satisfactory answer to my questions about the Bible's mention of the elect and predestination. John MacArthur has laid it all out so that it makes perfect sense to me; but then, anything that crushes human pride and elevates GOD is going to win points with me in the arena of theology.

The concept of "free will" itself is at best an illusion, at worst a Satanic deception that keeps people stuck in their own pride. In Romans 6, Paul describes us as slaves of sin prior to becoming slaves of Christ. Does a slave have free will? No, of course not. If you are a slave of sin, you don't have the free will to NOT sin and even our "good works" become sinful if not done out of obedience to GOD (Isaiah 64:6).

Even if free will does exist, then what about the biblical examples of Isaac, Jacob, Esau, Jeremiah, and John the Baptist. Didn't GOD violate their free will by deciding their spiritual destiny before they were even born?

So, I believe the concept of human free will is a lie and I don't see a single verse in the Bible that elevates it above GOD's sovereignty, which is where you seem to be placing it. If you have some verses that state otherwise, then feel free to post them.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

The problem with you Nathan, is you change your mind. I remember having these same debates when you were equally as admament that GOD doesnt force people.

All you have done is plopped yourself down into Calvinism, something, which in the time of MacT you openly rejected.

I don't know that I ever openly rejected the idea of predestination or election. I've always believed in it, I just never fully understood it. Do you have some quotes from me stating otherwise?

At the time that I was arguing with MacT, I was unfamiliar with the term "Calvinism" so I was reluctant to be lumped into a theological line of thought that I didn't know anything about. Over the last few years, I have educated myself on the 5 points of Calvinism and have found that there is not much there for me to disagree with. My beliefs in the essentials haven't changed at all. Now I simply have names that I can assign to the non-essentials.

Anyways, would you rather argue with someone who never even considers the possibility that they may be wrong and thus never researches their own beliefs? Doesn't the Bible tell us to test all things?

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Some of us still remember when you supported a guy who made wild claims about the End Times, simply because he made a few tenuous connections between some signs, and some of the More Jewish aspects of Christianity. Of course as soon as the date, which I believe was in September, passed, you changed your tune, and suddenly you'd never believed it in the first place despite having put it here, not as a view, but with your endorsement.

I remember that. The facts are: it was not just one teacher and I never endorsed their predictions. I posted a few links to videos from a few different and unrelated teachers that all predicted that something big would happen before the summer of 2009. I never claimed that their predictions were going to be accurate - although, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have a worldwide economic collapse near the end of 2008? It was simply a thread started to spur discussion, nothing more. I had been listening to some of those teachers for years before then, so I thought it was something interesting to talk about and might make for an interesting thread. However, you instantly flew off the handle and started accusing me of things I never said and continue to accuse me of it to this day.

The fact that you continually refer to that thread as me endorsing "one guy" tells me that you never bothered to watch past the first video and just jumped to your own conclusions.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

and I cant believe my GOD would do Devine Rejection, not just because its horrible...but because he loves beauty and sometimes produces it for no reason but because he enjoys it. Someone who cares about his creation like that, would NOT freely attach his name to ANYTHING made purely for separation.

He has more integrity and honour....you do NOT drag a Holy Name through the dirt...we are made in His Image...there is NO WAY he would sodden his Image to make created Man destined for Hell.

He just wouldnt do that.

Keeping in mind that "divine rejection" is an assumption that you are making on your own. I've never stated that and the Bible most definitely doesn't teach that. Since you have a habit of putting words in my mouth, I feel I need to make this clear.

I also think that we need to be very careful when we talk about what GOD would or wouldn't do as if GOD's actions could somehow be deemed unjust by fallen, corrupted human beings. The best way I've heard it phrased is: GOD doesn't do things because they are just, things are just because GOD does them. GOD sets the standard for justice and it's not our place to question that standard.

As MacArthur mentions in the first part, we don't want to be spending too much time talking about justice and fairness being that we are sinners. If we truly got justice, then we would all go to Hell. We are not entitled to a chance at redemption, GOD offers it to us strictly out of His own mercy and He will have mercy on whomever He decides to have mercy on and compassion on whomever He decides to have compassion on (Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15).

We are ALL destined for Hell from the moment of conception. GOD isn't obligated to offer us any chance at salvation. Even if He only offered salvation to one person during the whole history of the human race, and sent everyone else to Hell for eternity, that is still infinitely more grace and mercy than He is required to show.

Originally Posted by NateR

Nope, I'm pretty sure that it Scripture that I am posting. If it wasn't in the Bible, I wouldn't believe it.

The simple fact is that the Bible clearly mentions GOD's choosing people, the elect, and predestination. I don't see how you can refute that.

Like I mentioned before, I was raised Baptist, but I never received what I considered to be a satisfactory answer to my questions about the Bible's mention of the elect and predestination. John MacArthur has laid it all out so that it makes perfect sense to me; but then, anything that crushes human pride and elevates GOD is going to win points with me in the arena of theology.

The concept of "free will" itself is at best an illusion, at worst a Satanic deception that keeps people stuck in their own pride. In Romans 6, Paul describes us as slaves of sin prior to becoming slaves of Christ. Does a slave have free will? No, of course not. If you are a slave of sin, you don't have the free will to NOT sin and even our "good works" become sinful if not done out of obedience to GOD (Isaiah 64:6).

Even if free will does exist, then what about the biblical examples of Isaac, Jacob, Esau, Jeremiah, and John the Baptist. Didn't GOD violate their free will by deciding their spiritual destiny before they were even born?

So, I believe the concept of human free will is a lie and I don't see a single verse in the Bible that elevates it above GOD's sovereignty, which is where you seem to be placing it. If you have some verses that state otherwise, then feel free to post them.

I already explained that in depth in a prior thread. Maybe Mark remembers which one. I am forgetful

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

This is good enough for me.

Trying to understand the nature of God can often be discouraging and openly stating that if God doesn't choose you then your f'ed is counter productive to the great commision.

I believe in a fair and just God and the idea of pre-destination in the form that we perceive it is not fair or just. So to contemplate the mere thought of it can cause a crisis of faith.

Jesus loves you and wants to save you.. When did we decide that this was not true?

Originally Posted by Chris F

They do in the original languages when put into proper context. The English translation when read alone makes it appear to not be all inclusive but if you read the bible as a whole and use proper hermeneutics you cannot be so flippant.

Well a greek student I am not but I did a little research and the greek for the word ALL and the greek word for MANY are not the same and are not used in the same context. But than again I probably don't have the right greek text book.

Originally Posted by Crisco

This is good enough for me.

Trying to understand the nature of God can often be discouraging and openly stating that if God doesn't choose you then your f'ed is counter productive to the great commision.

I believe in a fair and just God and the idea of pre-destination in the form that we perceive it is not fair or just. So to contemplate the mere thought of it can cause a crisis of faith.

Jesus loves you and wants to save you.. When did we decide that this was not true?

I understand this position, but why does God need to be fair. When it comes to him we have no rights. The rights that exist between each human being, does not exist between mankind and God.

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens, he does all that he pleases.

Originally Posted by NateR

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but you have to keep in mind that belief is an act of GOD and not something that is possible for the human mind without direct intervention from the Holy Spirit.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. I just don't believe limited atonement is taught in the Bible. It is my understanding that Christ died for all, and not just some. The other 4 points of Calvinism, I accept.

Originally Posted by Maglorius

I understand this position, but why does God need to be fair. When it comes to him we have no rights. The rights that exist between each human being, does not exist between mankind and God.

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens, he does all that he pleases.

The only reason I believe God needs to be fair is because that is the way he presents himself and God is not a liar or a deceiver.