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  #31  
Old 08-27-2011, 07:12 AM
Chris F
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Originally Posted by Maglorius View Post
There are many scripture that say Christ died for all and there are also those that say Christ died for many. Many doesn't mean all. Scripture does say that Christ died for all ie 1 timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2. So what are these saying? Yes Jesus died for all but only in a saving way for some.

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting that he,for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Hebrews 9:28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Matthew 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Isaiah 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors;yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one manís trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
They do in the original languages when put into proper context. The English translation when read alone makes it appear to not be all inclusive but if you read the bible as a whole and use proper hermeneutics you cannot be so flippant.
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  #32  
Old 08-28-2011, 02:37 AM
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Please cite the fallacy you are claiming here
The fallacy that GOD creates people just to send them to Hell. While, it might be a logical connection to our corrupted, fallen minds, it's not taught in Scripture.

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apples and grapes in hermeneutical context. I can justify suicide and polygamy but proof texting as well
There is no proof texting involved if it's the plain meaning of the text. You explain to me what that passage means if it's not talking about Divine Election.

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Nate this has nothing to do with salvation we all agree God can do anything he wants to. Where we disagree is that God does not make people follow him and worship him
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Please show me one verse where God gives no one the option to do something.
So, I provided one of many examples in the Old Testament. Why did Pharaoh not heed GOD? Because GOD wanted to multiply His wonders in the land of Egypt. So, GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart and, as a result, every first born child in the land of Egypt died (with the exception of those who marked their doorways with blood).
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  #33  
Old 08-28-2011, 02:51 AM
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These are the verses that have me absolutely convinced of Divine Election.

John 15:16, Jesus tells His disciples:
Quote:
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."
Acts 13: 44-48 (emphasis added)
Quote:
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
And the absolute undeniable proof of GOD's Divine Election, Romans chapter 9:

Quote:
I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Of course, since you disagree with what I'm saying, you're just going to accuse me of "proof-texting" so why don't you provide some Scriptural support for your claim in the sovereignty of human free will? Or maybe a verse or two where GOD Himself explains how He is subject to our free will?
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  #34  
Old 08-28-2011, 02:54 AM
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but if you read the bible as a whole
When you refer to the "bible as a whole" are you including the Old Testament?
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  #35  
Old 08-28-2011, 07:18 AM
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The fallacy that GOD creates people just to send them to Hell. While, it might be a logical connection to our corrupted, fallen minds, it's not taught in Scripture.



There is no proof texting involved if it's the plain meaning of the text. You explain to me what that passage means if it's not talking about Divine Election.



You requested:


So, I provided one of many examples in the Old Testament. Why did Pharaoh not heed GOD? Because GOD wanted to multiply His wonders in the land of Egypt. So, GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart and, as a result, every first born child in the land of Egypt died (with the exception of those who marked their doorways with blood).
What rule of logic Nate not what are you claiming fallacy. You said just becuase one is does not mean the other has to logically speaking. I asked what logic or argumentation rule are you claiming because I know of no such rule.

As for the rest of yur claims we just got to ahree to disagree. I gave you three pages of verses last time we (you,Mark and myself) discussed this and it did not chnage you mind so there is no real point beating a dead horse. You are citing Calvinism not scripture. Oh well at aleast it made the forum jump for a few days
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  #36  
Old 08-28-2011, 02:54 PM
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Read up on Abraham, Jacob and Esau, the Nation of Israel, Moses, King David, the virgin Mary, John the Baptist, Jesus' Disciples, and the Apostle Paul; then tell me who chose whom in those situations.



Not at all.
Yes you are Logically speaking as they are opposites. You use a get out clause called "we cant comprehend" to get over what is an equal fact if you believe one. that is that you must, by logical, believe the other!

Abraham was praised by GOD because he trusted GOD enough to sacrifice his son. Was Abraham forced to nearly kill Issac? No.

GOD has a habit of choosing Heirs for the Kingship of Israel. GODs calling for someone, and GOD forcing Slavation upon them is NOT the same thing

Calling Mary to bear his Son doesnt mean that he chooses people for Salvation. He MAY have special roles for people during their earthly life.

The Disciples were chosen...amoung them Judas...does GOD make mistakes?

Yes The Nation of Israel was originally chosen, but two things have changed since then, Firstly, She rebelled, and secondly, she is held under a completely DIFFERENT covernant!

When you can show GOD chooses anyone for more then a vocation, and its someone NOT bound by a different covernant, and when you want to accept Logical Opposites rather then ignoring the difficulty of GOD ellecting people for BOTH Heaven and Hell, please, do get back to me.

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Old 08-28-2011, 03:11 PM
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These are the verses that have me absolutely convinced of Divine Election.
The problem with you Nathan, is you change your mind. I remember having these same debates when you were equally as admament that GOD doesnt force people.

All you have done is plopped yourself down into Calvinism, something, which in the time of MacT you openly rejected.

I might just sit down and wait til somebody sends you a link to another "pastor" or "preacher" who you decide has got the answer to all biblical knowledge and wait for that Pastor to say something equally convincing and for you to suddenly promote another brand of Christianity.

Some of us still remember when you supported a guy who made wild claims about the End Times, simply because he made a few tenuous connections between some signs, and some of the More Jewish aspects of Christianity. Of course as soon as the date, which I believe was in September, passed, you changed your tune, and suddenly you'd never believed it in the first place despite having put it here, not as a view, but with your endorsement.

Now I am all for seeing the point of view of others, and I think its a wholesome person who COULD argue for both sides. But to actively shift, and then openly squash other people on the forum who havent wavered in their views, because you have...well it makes me wonder if what you believe is truely as fixed as you make out...or if you are, in essence, rocked by different fads and different denominational beliefs, and the true reason you detest some and favour others is not because you dont believe or do believe, its out of ignorance of not knowing...and all you need is to find a preacher on the subject who you can listen to...and your learning can be so extensive that you find yourself actually changing your mind.

Perhaps one day you will also come to the conclusion that Roman Catholics are not spawns of Satan afterall. But certainly, whilst my views mature, they dont radically reverse, like yours have done over this view. I dont like that, I dont find that sound. Slow progression and change due to personal circumstances and growth I can accept...believing one thing, listening to a preacher, and then reversing a doctrinal belief isnt what I call growth...its what I call, possibly, searching....but to not have a fixed view on such an important doctrine as Predestiny Vs Freewill, is to be able to hold multiple conflicting theologies about Christianity.

I dont think being a Calvinist bars you from Salvation, but I do think it makes you increadibly mistaken about the whole essence of what GODs creation is all about and what he actually wants from his creation. It is, as my siggie once read "a loveless GOD" because whilst he may Love...we can not...and if we can not, all he has is Robots...Robots do not love...therefore GOD receives nothing from a person that isnt really of his own initiation...and therefore without being from the person, its not love, mere duty, unfulfilling, replicated to what he already has...and quite honnestly not worth the expense, or the lamentations he has put in.

The other extreme is Universalism...which creates a Judgeless GOD...and belief in that is thoroughly unchristian.
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  #38  
Old 08-28-2011, 03:24 PM
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Here is something else for you to think about.

I believe GOD COULD do exactly what you claim. I believe it is in his power to over rule free will, I believe in exceptional circumstance he has and does. I also believe he has a will, has a plan, and hopes and conspires to make that happen, as we can see in terms of momentarily hardening peoples hearts, or choosing who he wants for certain ministries.

I also believe GOD originally did EXACTLY what you claim, in terms of selecting Israel to be his Chosen...however...even with that, He didnt enforce it, or else rebellion could never have occured...and to apply that to people governed by a different Covernant is to ignore primary facts about the Jewish Covernants.

I believe he would Not do as you claim for Salvation, outside of the rarest of cases. I believe this is because he wants the one thing he actually can not create.

He wants his Creation to Love him, not because they have to, not because it is right and proper to do so, not because he made them, not because he could force them to do his will. He wants them to freely commit and pledge themselves to him, entirely because THEY WANT TO and for absolutely no other reason.

The Father wants you to love him, as if you were a member of the Trinity. Not because you are forced, but because you are and will be part of him, just as the Son and the Spirit are part of Him.

That can not happen with Devine Selection...and I cant believe my GOD would do Devine Rejection, not just because its horrible...but because he loves beauty and sometimes produces it for no reason but because he enjoys it. Someone who cares about his creation like that, would NOT freely attach his name to ANYTHING made purely for separation.

He has more integrity and honour....you do NOT drag a Holy Name through the dirt...we are made in His Image...there is NO WAY he would sodden his Image to make created Man destined for Hell.

He just wouldnt do that.
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  #39  
Old 08-28-2011, 11:36 PM
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For Tyburn, from the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England:

Quote:
Article X

Of Free Will

The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith and calling upon God. Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us that we may have a good will, and working with us when we have that good will.
Quote:
Article XVII

Of Predestination and Election

Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby, before the foundations of the world were laid, He hath constantly decreed by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom He hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation as vessels made to honour. Wherefore they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by His Spirit working in due season; they through grace obey the calling; they be justified freely; they be made sons of God by adoption; they be made like the image of His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ; they walk religiously in good works; and at length by God's mercy they attain to everlasting felicity.
As the godly consideration of Predestination and our Election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: so for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the devil doth thrust them either into desperation or into wretchlessness of most unclean living no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise as they be generally set forth in Holy Scripture; and in our doings that will of God is to be followed which we have expressly declared unto us in the word of God.
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  #40  
Old 08-29-2011, 12:27 AM
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For Tyburn, from the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England:



A good 80 percent of Anglicans wouldnt believe that we dont follow any articals really because our spectrum reaches from pentecostal to Catholic without Rome
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