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  #21  
Old 08-26-2011, 07:49 PM
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Crisco did a great job but Judas is easy when you know his background. Judas was a part of the same group Barnabas was and they believed the Messiah would be a political savior. Judas was hoping to push Jesus into this role by getting him arrested. God knew this as did Jesus and it worked perfectly for God's will. Had Judas not did that Jesus would have still went to the cross.
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2011, 08:12 PM
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There is no such thing as Divine Election.

If there was, there would be no need for earth, and no need for evanglization, and of course, no need for GOD to bother creating half the Human race. It also means that we can not truely love GOD, which is what GOD desires...and always has desired, as he laments time and time again, that he wishes no person damned, but that all would turn to him (repeated over and over in the Levitical texts) this is a silly thing for GOD to say if we had no power at all, and no free will....and yes I can find the quotes in Scripture if people want to contend that point.

Later still GOD laments that He simply wants to be Israels GOD, and it is his wish that they are his people. He doesnt speak about Israel as if he has control over her longings...for if he did, then she would not sin...and he calls her a "Rebellious house" He actually gets very emotive through the prophets, particularly ezekiel and jeremiah. There is simply no need for that if he dictates outcomes.

I think what is beautiful about the whole narrative is that GOD desires true love. He desires someone to love him. He does not require Robots...he has those in the heavenly realm already to a large extent. History is a tale of how GOD goes in search of an unrequited Love. How, after making a choice to love Israel, she abandons him, and he is forced to save a remenant of her, not because he loves her, but because out of love for her he attached his name to her...and his name must always be held in high regard. It is a story about GOD so wanting our love, that he would self sacrifice so that we who are sinful can be in his presence long enough to be transformed, and yet not comprimise his own being. A cost which was extremely great to him...and of which there would be again, no need, if GOD simply selects who he wants.

Now IF I was going to argue a case for such a bizzare belief, then I would look at two Biblical Characters that appeared to be Cursed no matter what. From the Old Testament I would pick King Nebuchanezza of Babylon...and I would ask...how come when the King does according to GODs plans, does he inevitably get squished. For when GOD finally despaired of Israel, he brough Babylon down on Jerusalem, and the whole place was ruined. Ironically...the later fall of Babylon, according to Jeremiah is GODs retribution for the Exhile of Israel.

But hang on...whose idea for the Exhile was it in the first place??? If Nebuchanezza had decided not to attack Israel...the whole of Jewish History would have changed. GOD had a plan and made it known before the invasion...should the King of Babylon been free of sin if he had heard and thus avoided??

Secondly...one has to ask...what about Judas Escariot. It was imperative that Judas betrayed Jesus. Absolutely essential to the whole of Salvation History, not just the Jesus be Murdered...but that he also be Betrayed. Now one has to ask oneself...did Judas have free will...?? Or was he "destined" to betray Jesus??

If GOD can force people to do anything like that, then it is clear he can remove free will, and if there is no free will, then devine selection is the obvious answer.

My belief and it is a sure one, is that GOD grants free will, but its for his own benefit rather then ours...and that is to find real love. I think that in exceptional circumstances, where GOD is making a biblical statement in History, then he can remove free will. But its only everso fleeting.

I gave two examples where I thing GOD made someone do something for him, both of which involved them sinning, and both of which were then punished for it. I dont see GOD doing this sort of thing again until the Rise of the Anti Christ...where he MUST ensure certain things happen.
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  #23  
Old 08-26-2011, 08:28 PM
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I never heard the term "Calvinism" before I started attending a Presbyterian Church in 2006. I was raised Baptist and have had to study Calvinism from that background. However, I find that the more I study Calvinism, the more I agree with it. So, I guess I am becoming a Calvinist because I see how perfectly it lines up with the Bible.

I couldn't disagree more that Divine Election means that GOD creates people for Hell. There is no Biblical support for that notion. In fact, it seems to be nothing but a logical fallacy and a false doctrine invented for the sole purpose of discrediting what the Bible clearly teaches about election.

The mere existence of the nation of Israel in the Old Testament proves GOD's Divine Election. There's no "proof texting" necessary there.
Really.

If you were to believe two people were made, and one was chosen by devine selection....then you are forced to believe in devine Rejection also. That GOD created the second man, with the knowledge he wasnt to be chosen...and thus his sole purpose is...What...?

Now tell me if THAT lines up with the scriptures??

The mere existance of Israel, is nothing more then the defending of his Holy Name. Its debatable if love for Israel has anything to do with it. He made a Choice to love her...he attached his name to her...she rebelled...he saves a remenant of her...why....?

Consult a few prophets before you decide to reply with anything to do with him loving her anymore. Hw built a new covernant...and honours Israel because of his association with her...not purely because of love for her.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:30 PM
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How can we reconcile the dogma of Calvin against the Scripture of James?
You cant.
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  #25  
Old 08-27-2011, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Crisco View Post
James 1: 13-14

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.


How can we reconcile the dogma of Calvin against the Scripture of James?
That doesn't answer the question. GOD doesn't tempt people to sin. However, you don't think that GOD knows that people are going to sin before they sin? Did Judas' betrayal of Christ take GOD by surprise?

Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, but I guess GOD just didn't know any specifics of how that Lamb was going to be slain? That's ridiculous.
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  #26  
Old 08-27-2011, 01:39 AM
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The opposite is true Nate if you claim that God created some to be saved then the only logical conclusion is some were created not to be saved.
That's a logical flaw in your thinking. One does not necessarily lead to the other.

Even if it did, who are we to say that GOD can't create people for the sole purpose of demonstrating His wrath upon? Isn't that His prerogative?

Did GOD send Israel into the Holy Land to proclaim the promise of the Messiah and preach the salvation of all mankind? Or did He send Israel into the Holy Land to exterminate its inhabitants?

Did the angels entering Sodom and Gomorrah publicly declare that the cities were about to be destroyed and call upon everyone to repent? Or did they go directly to the home of the one righteous man and quietly take him and his family out of the city before every other man, woman, child and animal was killed?

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Plus election and predestination are synonymous.
Yep...

Ephesians 1: 3-6 (emphasis added)
Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
Please show me one verse where God gives no one the option to do something.
Exodus 11: 9-10 (emphasis added):
But the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh will not heed you, so that My wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt." So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
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  #27  
Old 08-27-2011, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CAVEMAN View Post
I agree mostly with the the theology of Calvinism until the part about Christ only dying for the elect. So I guess you could call say I agree with 4 points!

It is my understanding from what I have read that Christ died for all and I believe it to be clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 10: 13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

John 3: 16, 17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."


1 Timothy 2: 6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

1 John 2: 2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."


Words like world, whosoever, & all, are awfully big words to equate with elect.
And I believe some Calvinists, especially hyper Calvinists, are reaching on this point.

Just my 2 cents.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but you have to keep in mind that belief is an act of GOD and not something that is possible for the human mind without direct intervention from the Holy Spirit.
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  #28  
Old 08-27-2011, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
There is no such thing as Divine Election.
Read up on Abraham, Jacob and Esau, the Nation of Israel, Moses, King David, the virgin Mary, John the Baptist, Jesus' Disciples, and the Apostle Paul; then tell me who chose whom in those situations.

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then you are forced to believe in devine Rejection also..
Not at all.
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  #29  
Old 08-27-2011, 06:09 AM
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There are many scripture that say Christ died for all and there are also those that say Christ died for many. Many doesn't mean all. Scripture does say that Christ died for all ie 1 timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2. So what are these saying? Yes Jesus died for all but only in a saving way for some.

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting that he,for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Hebrews 9:28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Matthew 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Isaiah 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors;yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
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  #30  
Old 08-27-2011, 08:07 AM
Chris F
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
That's a logical flaw in your thinking. One does not necessarily lead to the other. Please cite the fallacy you are claiming here

Even if it did, who are we to say that GOD can't create people for the sole purpose of demonstrating His wrath upon? Isn't that His prerogative?

Did GOD send Israel into the Holy Land to proclaim the promise of the Messiah and preach the salvation of all mankind? Or did He send Israel into the Holy Land to exterminate its inhabitants?

Did the angels entering Sodom and Gomorrah publicly declare that the cities were about to be destroyed and call upon everyone to repent? Or did they go directly to the home of the one righteous man and quietly take him and his family out of the city before every other man, woman, child and animal was killed?



Yep...

Ephesians 1: 3-6 (emphasis added)
Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.apples and grapes in hermeneutical context. I can justify suicide and polygamy but proof texting as well



Exodus 11: 9-10 (emphasis added):
But the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh will not heed you, so that My wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt." So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land.Nate this has nothing to do with salvation we all agree God can do anything he wants to. Where we disagree is that God does not make people follow him and worship him
red above
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