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  #11  
Old 06-07-2011, 11:46 AM
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See...I remember Guida being active on the ground, but only as a counter response to the submission attacks from Anthony Pettis.

He isnt a good example to use of a LNP Wrestler because he's usually quite exciting and explosive...but this weekend the problem was what his win would entail...originially a shot at the title...presumably, as thats what was in it for Pettis...but the UFC have not confirmed Guida...infact they hint that Possibly Miller, or another contendership battle is needed.

We need to ask ourselves WHY...when Guida definately won, are the UFC stalling...and I believe its because they have come under immence Criticism from the masses Vs GSP, and what was a competative Welterweight Division has become defaced because GSP essentially takes each fighter down and waits for half an hour to earn his points to win.

Now the Lightweight and lil guys have always been known to be exciting, and the division in the UFC is so deep...what they DONT want is anyone who will do what GSP has done...and Clay Guida showed that when push comes to shove his gameplan will be to avoid a loss rather then to push for a win. They are going to begin to find political motives to stop these Wrestlers from getting the chance.

...but thats the Wrestlers fault...because there are PLENTY of Wrestlers who DO NOT LNP, and plenty of Wrestlers who are well rounded enough to have BJJ skills on the ground. I would advise all people in contention to ONLY take someone down if they are going to GNP or Submit...if they are doing it for the points, they would be better to go for takedown after takedown and between times deliberately let the guy underneith get up...because the majority of fans are looosing patience with the likes of Greg Jacksons Wrestlers...and if he doesnt realize and act on this soon, then mark my words...the fall of GSP will be the fall of the entire Jacksons camp.

its not too late...but Clay Guida has shown how touchy everyone is on this subject. DONT DO IT...better to looose and re-fight, then win and be barred from contention forever...NOONE wants to end up like Jon Fitch...waiting, eternally at The Presidents Pleasure. I would strongly urge those who have this leaning to learn, and learn quickly. If you are well rounded enough, it shouldnt matter where the fight goes...and you should be able to do more then takedown and pin...that is NOT ground fighting...its stalling and preventing a fight...its a mute or pause button on the action...and the points you get through it are no longer worth it.
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  #12  
Old 06-07-2011, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
See...I remember Guida being active on the ground, but only as a counter response to the submission attacks from Anthony Pettis.

He isnt a good example to use of a LNP Wrestler because he's usually quite exciting and explosive...but this weekend the problem was what his win would entail...originially a shot at the title...presumably, as thats what was in it for Pettis...but the UFC have not confirmed Guida...infact they hint that Possibly Miller, or another contendership battle is needed.

We need to ask ourselves WHY...when Guida definately won, are the UFC stalling...and I believe its because they have come under immence Criticism from the masses Vs GSP, and what was a competative Welterweight Division has become defaced because GSP essentially takes each fighter down and waits for half an hour to earn his points to win.

Now the Lightweight and lil guys have always been known to be exciting, and the division in the UFC is so deep...what they DONT want is anyone who will do what GSP has done...and Clay Guida showed that when push comes to shove his gameplan will be to avoid a loss rather then to push for a win. They are going to begin to find political motives to stop these Wrestlers from getting the chance.

...but thats the Wrestlers fault...because there are PLENTY of Wrestlers who DO NOT LNP, and plenty of Wrestlers who are well rounded enough to have BJJ skills on the ground. I would advise all people in contention to ONLY take someone down if they are going to GNP or Submit...if they are doing it for the points, they would be better to go for takedown after takedown and between times deliberately let the guy underneith get up...because the majority of fans are looosing patience with the likes of Greg Jacksons Wrestlers...and if he doesnt realize and act on this soon, then mark my words...the fall of GSP will be the fall of the entire Jacksons camp.

its not too late...but Clay Guida has shown how touchy everyone is on this subject. DONT DO IT...better to looose and re-fight, then win and be barred from contention forever...NOONE wants to end up like Jon Fitch...waiting, eternally at The Presidents Pleasure. I would strongly urge those who have this leaning to learn, and learn quickly. If you are well rounded enough, it shouldnt matter where the fight goes...and you should be able to do more then takedown and pin...that is NOT ground fighting...its stalling and preventing a fight...its a mute or pause button on the action...and the points you get through it are no longer worth it.


ermmmmm what??
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  #13  
Old 06-07-2011, 03:39 PM
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
Now the Lightweight and lil guys have always been known to be exciting, and the division in the UFC is so deep...what they DONT want is anyone who will do what GSP has done...and Clay Guida showed that when push comes to shove his gameplan will be to avoid a loss rather then to push for a win. They are going to begin to find political motives to stop these Wrestlers from getting the chance.

its not too late...but Clay Guida has shown how touchy everyone is on this subject. DONT DO IT...better to looose and re-fight, then win and be barred from contention forever...NOONE wants to end up like Jon Fitch...waiting, eternally at The Presidents Pleasure. I would strongly urge those who have this leaning to learn, and learn quickly. If you are well rounded enough, it shouldnt matter where the fight goes...and you should be able to do more then takedown and pin...that is NOT ground fighting...its stalling and preventing a fight...its a mute or pause button on the action...and the points you get through it are no longer worth it.
Sorry, Dave, but I gotta call bull$h!t.

Go back & actually watch the fight from the perspective of "is Clay active", not "is Pettis winning". If you watch there are many times where Guida is in danger from Anthony's triangles & yet he's still throwing strikes. Anthony would get wrist control & completely isolate one of Clay's arms, but rather than hunker down & stall & wait out the decision (as you're implying that he did), he instead would throw those shoulder strikes and (when he got tired of those), would sit up, exposing himself to the triangle for the opportunity to throw punches. Then when Anthony would throw up the submission, Clay would defend it well and, rather than dive in to smother or try to stand up & avoid, he'd stay right there in the pocket, throwing punch after punch, each one coming dangerously close to be caught & used for another submission.

On top of that, he was continually trying to pass. Don't mistake Anthony's fantastic ability to maintain gaurd for Clay being disinterested in advancing. And despite Anthony's great jits, Clay was still able to fight his way to half-guard a few times & even managed to pass completely to side-control & then take the back.

There is a huge difference between GSP's wrestling & Clay's wrestling. Just because they're from the same camp, don't assume that they're identical. Jackson doesn't force his fighters into a mold & demand they follow it: he takes their pre-existing style & enhances it.
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by VCURamFan View Post
Sorry, Dave, but I gotta call bull$h!t.

Go back & actually watch the fight from the perspective of "is Clay active", not "is Pettis winning". If you watch there are many times where Guida is in danger from Anthony's triangles & yet he's still throwing strikes. Anthony would get wrist control & completely isolate one of Clay's arms, but rather than hunker down & stall & wait out the decision (as you're implying that he did), he instead would throw those shoulder strikes and (when he got tired of those), would sit up, exposing himself to the triangle for the opportunity to throw punches. Then when Anthony would throw up the submission, Clay would defend it well and, rather than dive in to smother or try to stand up & avoid, he'd stay right there in the pocket, throwing punch after punch, each one coming dangerously close to be caught & used for another submission.

On top of that, he was continually trying to pass. Don't mistake Anthony's fantastic ability to maintain gaurd for Clay being disinterested in advancing. And despite Anthony's great jits, Clay was still able to fight his way to half-guard a few times & even managed to pass completely to side-control & then take the back.

There is a huge difference between GSP's wrestling & Clay's wrestling. Just because they're from the same camp, don't assume that they're identical. Jackson doesn't force his fighters into a mold & demand they follow it: he takes their pre-existing style & enhances it.

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  #16  
Old 06-07-2011, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by VCURamFan View Post
Sorry, Dave, but I gotta call bull$h!t.

Go back & actually watch the fight from the perspective of "is Clay active", not "is Pettis winning". If you watch there are many times where Guida is in danger from Anthony's triangles & yet he's still throwing strikes. Anthony would get wrist control & completely isolate one of Clay's arms, but rather than hunker down & stall & wait out the decision (as you're implying that he did), he instead would throw those shoulder strikes and (when he got tired of those), would sit up, exposing himself to the triangle for the opportunity to throw punches. Then when Anthony would throw up the submission, Clay would defend it well and, rather than dive in to smother or try to stand up & avoid, he'd stay right there in the pocket, throwing punch after punch, each one coming dangerously close to be caught & used for another submission.

On top of that, he was continually trying to pass. Don't mistake Anthony's fantastic ability to maintain gaurd for Clay being disinterested in advancing. And despite Anthony's great jits, Clay was still able to fight his way to half-guard a few times & even managed to pass completely to side-control & then take the back.

There is a huge difference between GSP's wrestling & Clay's wrestling. Just because they're from the same camp, don't assume that they're identical. Jackson doesn't force his fighters into a mold & demand they follow it: he takes their pre-existing style & enhances it.
No...I think he just fits the gameplan to the fighter...and its always to win, no matter the cost...which is unfortunate when there IS a cost involved to not just winning, but HOW you win...as I explain in my recap video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOECCLILYg
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  #17  
Old 06-07-2011, 05:33 PM
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I don't know why everyone is always arguing about this! Oh his boring oh he fights not to loos oh he is just LNP the objective of this whole damn sport is to Win!!! and get Paid!!! That's It Period.

Will you get paid more for being flashy and entertaining maybe will you get cut for losing most of the time yes.

This is a sport and just like any other sport the only goal is winning. If you are not doing anything illegal than you have the right to win however you want.
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:39 PM
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I don't know why everyone is always arguing about this! Oh his boring oh he fights not to loos oh he is just LNP the objective of this whole damn sport is to Win!!! and get Paid!!! That's It Period.

Will you get paid more for being flashy and entertaining maybe will you get cut for losing most of the time yes.

This is a sport and just like any other sport the only goal is winning. If you are not doing anything illegal than you have the right to win however you want.
To a Great Many people this is NOT JUST a sport.

Prooven by some who loose but still see their stocks rise, and prooven by those who dont get what they deserve when they win, IF they win in an un-entertaining manner.

There is an element of Entertainment in this sport. Some participents would do well to remember that. They need to be wellrounded...Skills and Wins are no longer enough to secure you AFTER you pass your prime...if you want long term success you must become notorious

Like Chael Sonnen...whose done such horrendous things, noone will ever forget him. Like Randy Couture who could fight at 100, fail, and still be applauded as Captian America. Like Jens Pulver, who has more fans, is better known, and more liked now after all the successive losses, then when he was a Champion with the belt, because the people love his character.

Do you understand?
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:47 PM
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To a Great Many people this is NOT JUST a sport.

Prooven by some who loose but still see their stocks rise, and prooven by those who dont get what they deserve when they win, IF they win in an un-entertaining manner.

There is an element of Entertainment in this sport. Some participents would do well to remember that. They need to be wellrounded...Skills and Wins are no longer enough to secure you AFTER you pass your prime...if you want long term success you must become notorious

Like Chael Sonnen...whose done such horrendous things, noone will ever forget him. Like Randy Couture who could fight at 100, fail, and still be applauded as Captian America. Like Jens Pulver, who has more fans, is better known, and more liked now after all the successive losses, then when he was a Champion with the belt, because the people love his character.

Do you understand?
I don't see what that has to do with winning? Winning is Winning I think.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:21 PM
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I don't see what that has to do with winning? Winning is Winning I think.
Winning is Good. Finishing is Excellent. Entertaining is Outstanding.

A True Champion combines all the above, with well rounded skills, and a morally upright character

HE is remembered long after he leaves the sport...and long after he leaves the earth probably.

But thats far more then winning is winning...sometimes looosing is winning (like Dan Downes Vs Jeremy Stephens, and sometimes Winning is looosing, Like poor Clay Guida who beats Anthony Pettis...but isnt given immediate rights to a shot)

9 times out of 10 Winning is the best, not just for your record, but for your progression...but their are exceptions...GSP winning only frustrates the crowd, thats bad for business., Anderson Silva winning (when he feels like it, and in his own time) leads Dana White refusing to personally present him the belt....Those guys might not get higher, or as high as they could go...because the insitution could turn on them.

The only thing more important then winning, (academically speaking) is Business, Business revolves around Money, Money revolves around the willingness of the fans to give it, in return for Sport AND Entertainment....Noone gets into the UFC without managing sport (except maybe war machine, or Kalib Starnes...) so what singles a man out when EVERYONE is packed full of skills and well rounded...is Entertainment.

Thats why BJ Penn was one of the near-perfect Athletes for MMA...He had the skills AND the Entertainment...but he lacked character...and he had issues with applying himself. Fedor also managed it...his Entertainment, was not just the exciting way he fights...BUT his Mystery.

but a loss by Werdum...and out come the "i-told-you-so" and poor BJ...he didnt even get finished and half the bloody world right after his title loss were like "time-to-retire"

NOW you see that winning is only part of success...an important aspect...but it could be argued, popular support is nearing its equal.
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