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  #21  
Old 03-11-2009, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonlion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsKDG...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkTw3...eature=related

I ask you to listen for two minutes! The sacrifice we as a nation made was great to fight this tyranny and i maintain that we always would have.
I listened and enjoyed. Thanks, Jon.



Quote:
The actual quote that winston said about being drunk was to his maid, Bessie Braddock
Bessie: Winston your drunk
Winston: Bessie, i may be drunk but your ugly, in the morning I shall be sober.

Last edited by Neezar; 03-11-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2009, 01:53 PM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
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Originally Posted by NateR
Exactly which passage in Acts are you talking about?
The one where Saint Peter kills one of the Community Members who has not given all his wealth and/or land and surrendered it to the Apostles.

The Apostles gave up on the Commune by the sounds of it after the Martyrdom of Saint Stephen. If you recall the problem was that the Jewish Community who accepted Christ had began to come into conflict with the converts to Messianic Judaism. They were Greeks in a foreign land with no wealth and no home. Supporting them became such a task that the Apostles felt it distracted them from their mission and they set up a body, a council, for distribution and looking after the Community, of which several members were brought in to represent the Hellenistic converts.

After Stephen was killed, it sounds like the Apostles changed tactics. They left the nest and began plantations around Missionary Circuits. At that point its probably safe to say that the Communistic era of the Early Church ended..we know this because we know that when they set up these new Churches they DID NOT set them up like the original Pentecost.

The originals had no priests and worshiped DIRECTLY alongside the Jews. But the Jew tollerated them less and less, Saint Stephen was one case, but even later Saint Paul discovered that the two faiths couldnt opperate from the same base. Christ changed everything. He designed the Pontifical Church, a structure which is NOT Communist, but Fuedal infact.

When the Commune Ended, the split between Jew and Christian was complete. Several centuries later the Roman Catholic Church would take up the Pontifical Structure outlined by Saint Paul, but base it from Saint Peters domain in Rome. Constantine would try to move that Centre towards Saint Andrew and Saint Barnabus in the Eastern Orthodox Church, but the Empire fragmented and the Byzantium Empire split the Roman Church in two, the West remained Roman Catholic, the East was like Roman Catholic stuck in suspended animation. Want to look at what the Catholics were...look at the Orthodox Church, its like a snapshot of 5th Century Rome that never progressed.

Meanwhile in Israel and in France and other places dotted around the globe the Communistic Structure of living in a community, known as a Monastic Foundation, continued right up until the Reformation. Within the walls of the Foundations, Monks and Nuns lived solitary lives of contemplation and prayer, producing the great mystic christian tradition. Living a shared life of work, worship, study..and giving up their assets to the church and to the world.

When Henry split with Rome, he burned and smashed and distroyed the Foundations. as Protestism spread through northern Europe, less people joined the Continental Foundations...they litterally dried up and died out. So sad.
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2009, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by KENTUCKYREDBONE
1)I'm gonna try to correct some of your mistakes here! First it ain't just me being selfish and greedy as you claim! I strongly believe that the Freedom and capitalism does more good for more people than any communist Government!

2) As for us causing the rest of the world all them problems. Why ain't they calling the shots for their own Country? Americans tend to be a Generous people as long as you don't try a demand things from us! We like to help of our own free will.

3) However we do NOT want to be ordered around like little Children!

4) As for the Bank bailouts, YES I DO RESENT THAT! Let them take some responsibility for their own screw ups. I can sympathize with Folks who lost a job through no fault of their own but it ain't our job to bail out Folks that don't know how to run a business.

5) Now onto the selfish Freedom thing! Of course we expect freedom! Our Ancestors faught a war for it!

6)I also believe that without our help the rest of the world would have lost to Hitler.

7)As for the Monks. As long as they are there of their own free will, knew and accepted the rules going in. Then that's their choice not mine! If you think Communism is such a Noble concept I won't stop you from going where ever it is you need to in order to live under it. Before you go however you can post chapter and verse on where exactly in the Bible it endorses Communism cause I sure don't remember reading it. In fact Folk's in the Bible did own property. At least some did!

8)You see here in America the way it was originally set up the Governments job was to protect the Peoples Freedom, not take it from them. In fact our founders believed that our rights come not from the Government but from God!

10) You have already admitted its a failure on a large scale so it boggles the mind that you still think its a Noble thing!
1) who said anything about communism in government. I already told you on a large scale it doesnt work

2) Well thats because of your issolationistic views. You know, when your country didnt want to fight for the freedom of others, but wanted to burry its head in the sand. Consequently when you joined the war, you were the only country with any money left to rebuild once the war was won. The rest of us had to sacrifice our wealth so that you could be the super-power you have become.

Your now the base-trade of the world.

3)but you are little Children. You have a country of less then 500 years History, you've never faced half the fears your so frightened of. You ignore those countries who have lived for thousands of years, who know a tiny bit more then you from direct experience.

You speak of freedom, but your country has never know serious bondage. You act as if your Empire is the worlds liberator and your the only country to have done that. There is no shame in learning from older countries.

4) so to teach a bank owner (who didnt actually cause the entire issue) a lesson, you would sacrifice the rest of the world to nationalization? All to get back at a few bankers who arent going to learn from their mistakes anyway, but if worst comes to worst leave the working world with their millions. Meanwhile you preach about liberation, freedom, and being unselfish and a staunch hater of communism...? Your vendetta against the banks would have cost you a world full of political enemies...is that a sensible trade??

5) Wrong. What most Americans expect is anarchy. Freedom is always within boundaries. In every Country Freedom is restricted by the Law...in America it is not complete freedom, but Freedom UNDER GOD.

6) maybe, maybe not. Your geographical situation saves you from a lot. I do believe that two things stopped the entire Asian, African, and European plane from being sucked under Hitler. One was Hitlers regime itself. Adolf was abandoned by the best minds in his military. He foolishly went after Russia when he shouldnt have done. Secondly, the extra reserves brought in by the United States were, or would have been needed eventually.

Once the rest of the world was under Hitler, the United States would have been next.

7) with all due respect, you dont seem to know the difference between Communism as an Ideal, and Communism as a political structure. The latter doesnt work, the former in small groups works and is noble, and you see it all around you.

8) No, your government is a slave to the whims of its people. It is expected to provide the bear basics, and act at the control of the mob. Ever heard the term "Rome is The Mob" the Senate in Rome where THE PEOPLE changed the course of the Government...they were a rabble of arguing citizens. Just look how your people cant make up their mind Invade Iraq, dont invade Iraq, avoid the United Nations, support the United Nations. Your Government isnt allowed to lead, its not even allowed to maintain knowledge on its people lest they think their Government is being too nosy! its like...they are a bloody Government...what do you expect? They need to excersie a certain amount of control....give them a break

10) because the concept isnt quite the same as the practise. In a small group it works well. You see it everytime you partake in something which involves more then you, everytime you take one for the team, rather then yourself as an individual.

I'm sorry for shouting at you before. That was uncalled for
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2009, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
The one where Saint Peter kills one of the Community Members who has not given all his wealth and/or land and surrendered it to the Apostles.

The Apostles gave up on the Commune by the sounds of it after the Martyrdom of Saint Stephen. If you recall the problem was that the Jewish Community who accepted Christ had began to come into conflict with the converts to Messianic Judaism. They were Greeks in a foreign land with no wealth and no home. Supporting them became such a task that the Apostles felt it distracted them from their mission and they set up a body, a council, for distribution and looking after the Community, of which several members were brought in to represent the Hellenistic converts.

After Stephen was killed, it sounds like the Apostles changed tactics. They left the nest and began plantations around Missionary Circuits. At that point its probably safe to say that the Communistic era of the Early Church ended..we know this because we know that when they set up these new Churches they DID NOT set them up like the original Pentecost.

The originals had no priests and worshiped DIRECTLY alongside the Jews. But the Jew tollerated them less and less, Saint Stephen was one case, but even later Saint Paul discovered that the two faiths couldnt opperate from the same base. Christ changed everything. He designed the Pontifical Church, a structure which is NOT Communist, but Fuedal infact.

When the Commune Ended, the split between Jew and Christian was complete. Several centuries later the Roman Catholic Church would take up the Pontifical Structure outlined by Saint Paul, but base it from Saint Peters domain in Rome. Constantine would try to move that Centre towards Saint Andrew and Saint Barnabus in the Eastern Orthodox Church, but the Empire fragmented and the Byzantium Empire split the Roman Church in two, the West remained Roman Catholic, the East was like Roman Catholic stuck in suspended animation. Want to look at what the Catholics were...look at the Orthodox Church, its like a snapshot of 5th Century Rome that never progressed.

Meanwhile in Israel and in France and other places dotted around the globe the Communistic Structure of living in a community, known as a Monastic Foundation, continued right up until the Reformation. Within the walls of the Foundations, Monks and Nuns lived solitary lives of contemplation and prayer, producing the great mystic christian tradition. Living a shared life of work, worship, study..and giving up their assets to the church and to the world.

When Henry split with Rome, he burned and smashed and distroyed the Foundations. as Protestism spread through northern Europe, less people joined the Continental Foundations...they litterally dried up and died out. So sad.
That passage is not about Communism, Dave, it's about lying to the Holy Spirit. They tried to claim that they were giving all of the proceeds of the sale to the church, in order to gain prestige and notoriety among the church members, but they had actually held back some of the money for themselves. So they were punished for fraud. If they had just been truthful and said that they were keeping some of the money, then GOD would not have struck them dead.

There's absolutely nothing in the Bible that implies Communism.

Also the lifestyles of those monks and nuns was not a biblical one and just another example of Christian legalism. You can't be a light to the world if you shut yourself off from it.

Here's a question for you, what system of government with Jesus establish on the Earth during His 1,000 year reign?
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Old 03-11-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
1)That passage is not about Communism, Dave, it's about lying to the Holy Spirit. They tried to claim that they were giving all of the proceeds of the sale to the church, in order to gain prestige and notoriety among the church members, but they had actually held back some of the money for themselves. So they were punished for fraud. If they had just been truthful and said that they were keeping some of the money, then GOD would not have struck them dead.

There's absolutely nothing in the Bible that implies Communism.

2) Also the lifestyles of those monks and nuns was not a biblical one and just another example of Christian legalism. You can't be a light to the world if you shut yourself off from it.

Here's a question for you, what system of government with Jesus establish on the Earth during His 1,000 year reign?
1) Nope. Its more complex then that. It certainly hints that all proceeds were to go to the church, and any keeping of material wealth to oneself, is morally wrong.

Sure they lied about some of their assets...but they would have been required to give all they had to the Apostles. That is why they lied. To stop everything going to the Apostolic Kabutz. They lied, the lie killed them, but the lie was avoiding the Communistic sharing of labour and wealth. Think about it Nathan. If all Creation is GODs, it all belongs to Him anyway...your freedoms, your possesions, your labours...they arent yours...you own nothing. "We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. The Lord Gavest, The Lord Takest Away" Selfish, selfish, selfish...to think that what you have is truely yours. If it doesnt belong to you, what right do you have to complain if its taken, or must be given away?

Even Christ said to the Roman who condemned him, that No harm, nor anything can happen to Jesus, except on the authority of GOD. Pontius had no power of His own...GOD let him have the illusion of power, but Christ wasnt worried about his liberties or even life. He knew that GOD was in total control. GOD alone had the authority, Pontius was nothing but a pawn

2) Where do you think the idea of public schooling comes from? Again this is where you fall down because your country was so young it stole this section of devlopment from other cultures. It wasnt the Government that introduced Schooling and Education. It was the Monastic Foundation. The Universities, the Schools, the teaching of illiterate masses, was part of a service that the monks did with their local community (it was the study aspect) Another thing they did was develope the idea of a Health care service. The doctors of that epoch were again, the monks who were self trained and taught in herbalism and the likes.

When I said they lived solitary lives, what I meant was not that they hid in their foundations and never came out. The fact you question shows your complete and utter lack of knowledge. What I mean was, they set themselve apart from the community. They gave up their lives, worldly possessions and moved into the Church. The foundation looked after them, spreading whatever wealth they brought back. The Monks and Nuns worked in the community, but because they were not part of it, they had time to reflect and ceaselessly pray. Therefore they were the contemplatives, the mystics, a shared community life.

3) A monarchy of course. Like we have in the United Kingdom...like you Americans find very restricting. What will you all do when Christ TELLS you to do something, and takes away your "Rights" you have no rights under Him but what he gives you...thats what American culture fails to realize is written into its own legislature.

Your Forefathers knew. They knew what Freedom meant, and their freedom was under a supreme Monarch, a freedom which granted them, personally, NO Rights, but those that GOD gives.

Your culture has warped and twisted this. It thinks the "rights" were to stop governmental corruption. Not at all, the government never came into it. It was assumed a Christian Government would follow Christ. and "freedom" to do anything, which is not what the United States is all about, or at least not how it was conceived...what about the "one Nation" idiom...does that not implicate a team? a family? a shared and united existance of freedom under Christ?

The more you understand the more obvious it becomes that ideals, and politics are two separate things, and politics never fulfils the ideal. It cant. For whilst the ideals are good in the construct of Human thought...they get tarnished by sin when they are made manifest.

Its a fallen world.
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Last edited by Tyburn; 03-11-2009 at 04:21 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-11-2009, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
1) Nope. Its more complex then that. It certainly hints that all proceeds were to go to the church, and any keeping of material wealth to oneself, is morally wrong.
False.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neezar
I listened and enjoyed. Thanks, Jon.






I'm glad you liked them, the way he speaks really inspires! Its bizaare to think that what 50 years ago, people like us were expecting an invaision and preparing to defend their land.

It seems like time has changed so much but its scary to think how it all can escalate!

That quote is one of the funniest i have ever heard! A great reply to anyone who accuses you of being drunk!

Here is another one of his genius!

Lady Astor - "Winston, if you were my husband, i would flavour your coffee with poison"

Churchilll - "Madam, if i were your husband, i should drink it"


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  #28  
Old 03-11-2009, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
3) A monarchy of course. Like we have in the United Kingdom...like you Americans find very restricting. What will you all do when Christ TELLS you to do something, and takes away your "Rights" you have no rights under Him but what he gives you...thats what American culture fails to realize is written into its own legislature.
Technically, it will be a theocracy, but a monarchy is a reasonable approximation in our limited human terms. Although dictatorship would also be a good description.

The only reason that America rejected the monarchistic form of government is that, while we are living in this fallen world, then we have no choice but to choose fallen and corrupt human beings as our monarchs. Which is why so many checks and balances were put into place to ensure that no single US government official attained too much power (of course, that's been corrupted as well, which is why our country is having the problems it is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
Your Forefathers knew. They knew what Freedom meant, and their freedom was under a supreme Monarch, a freedom which granted them, personally, NO Rights, but those that GOD gives.
That's pretty close. Basically the way it's understood is that GOD is the source of human rights, morality and freedom, not the government. If the government is the source, then the government can eliminate freedoms at will. Giving the government ultimate power over their populations, thus creating tyranny.

Also, freedom and morality are most definitely not a matter of public opinion. Only the uneducated idiots being brought up in modern American public schools believe that nonsense.

Since GOD is the only true source of human freedom, then no human governor or president has the authority to infringe upon those freedoms. However, that doesn't erase the fact that we are responsible for our actions and that we must face consequences if we act irresponsibly.

This is why George Washington stated that any person who tries to subvert religion and morality cannot honestly call themselves a patriot of the United States.

What that basically means is that, if you are an atheist, then you can't possible call yourself patriotic towards the US. It simply doesn't work that way.
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  #29  
Old 03-11-2009, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonlion
Lady Astor - "Winston, if you were my husband, i would flavour your coffee with poison"

Churchilll - "Madam, if i were your husband, i should drink it"
Best comeback EVER.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2009, 05:51 PM
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Wow, I am learning so much from reading these posts. Everyone here has such valid points!! Im like scratching my head pondering.. haha.. I know the debates get heated, but all of you that contribute are smart cookies!!
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