Joshua, Jericho...and "the commander"

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

there is no such thing a a pre-incarnate Christ...thats defeats the whole point of THE Incarnation...so it must be Michael

Wrong. GOD the Son (Jesus) existed before the creation of the universe and He appeared more than once in the Old Testament. Anytime we see an angel accepting worship, it's a pre-incarnate Christ.

[Tyburn]

I'll put it like this Nathan,

suppose you do a Drama, a reconstruction of the Passion of The Christ...is the person who plays the part of Christ, and receites exactly what Christ Says...are they blaspheming?? By making out that they ARE GOD? for that is what anyone who plays the part of Christ will have to say...similarly...as they are riding on a donkey into Jerusalem, with crowds Cheering, and laying down palms...are they accepting Worship?

Or is what matters...not who they are...put what they are portraying. The actors, dont matter do they? and yet one actor must play the part of Christ...he is unimportant...just what he represents is whats important.

THAT is how I unify what Michael is seen to have done. He is acting on behalf of Christ, with Christs full say-so. Like an Ambassidor for a country who presents his Governments case...He has not made the decisions...and who he is, personally, is unimportant...and yet, HE is the one to say what his Government tell him to say...That doesnt make him the President...does it?

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Wrong. GOD the Son (Jesus) existed before the creation of the universe and He appeared more than once in the Old Testament. Anytime we see an angel accepting worship, it's a pre-incarnate Christ.

Jesus existed...but he didnt walk on Earth...I suppose if you believe that...you believe that since GOD is the same now as then...that Jesus still pops into human form everyso often and wanders about wrestling with people, or commanding armies????

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I'll put it like this Nathan,

suppose you do a Drama, a reconstruction of the Passion of The Christ...is the person who plays the part of Christ, and receites exactly what Christ Says...are they blaspheming?? By making out that they ARE GOD? for that is what anyone who plays the part of Christ will have to say...similarly...as they are riding on a donkey into Jerusalem, with crowds Cheering, and laying down palms...are they accepting Worship?

Or is what matters...not who they are...put what they are portraying. The actors, dont matter do they? and yet one actor must play the part of Christ...he is unimportant...just what he represents is whats important.

THAT is how I unify what Michael is seen to have done. He is acting on behalf of Christ, with Christs full say-so. Like an Ambassidor for a country who presents his Governments case...He has not made the decisions...and who he is, personally, is unimportant...and yet, HE is the one to say what his Government tell him to say...That doesnt make him the President...does it?

The fact that he accepts worship proves that it cannot be Michael.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Jesus existed...but he didnt walk on Earth...I suppose if you believe that...you believe that since GOD is the same now as then...that Jesus still pops into human form everyso often and wanders about wrestling with people, or commanding armies????

Strawman argument = logical fallacy

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Strawman argument = logical fallacy

If Jesus walked on the earth Pre-Incarnation, name one good reason why he couldnt walk Post-Incarnate?

There is no good reason, thus you cant rule it out....and I hardly think the implications of that are any more Christian, then a Host Accepting praise.

The Truth is...we dont know who that encounter was...we dont know who wrestled with Abraham, Who distroyed Sodom, Who Saved Lot, and who the commander of the army of the Lord is....You think its Christ appearing willynilly out of the ether and then blinking out of chronology, and probably because you cant unify the praise issue....I think that it is Michael, because most of the actions seem to be in line with following heavenly orders, and we know his place within the realm...a fighter must be able to physically wrestle, must be able to destroy cities, must be able to do Opus Dei, and must be commanding or involved with the spiritual war.

At least I'm man enough to admit, that I cant be 100percent certain...but I have explained HOW I think its possible to unify and get around problems that force you to create a Christ out of thin air. Maybe I'm completely wrong...but I dont think so. I dont believe in a pre-incarnate Christ on Earth, neither do I believe in a post incarnate Christ on earth, barr those visitations outlined in scripture for the apostles, and for the Tribulation...he has a vast army of Angels, that you reduce to being mere beings sat twiddling their thumbs in the heavens some where...these creatures are all in opporation 24/7 wasnt it somewhere in the pauline scriptures where he even says something about Host being delayed, or late, or something. Their Function, their Brief covers everything in those circumstances...I dont, frankly, know why Jesus Himself would bother, simply appearing and dissapearing infront of Joshua with a cryptic message about his Title...or why he would bother wrestling with Abraham...thats what grunts are for...since when does the president, personally lead the troops into Battle??? Jesus MUSTNT lead the troops into battle...he has NO NEED for troops if he tried to do that...his mere presence would be enough...there IS NO WAR if you put Christ as the head of the Angelic Armed Forces...So He CANT be Christ.

[Play The Man]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I dont, frankly, know why Jesus Himself would bother, simply appearing and dissapearing infront of Joshua with a cryptic message about his Title...or why he would bother wrestling with Abraham...thats what grunts are for...since when does the president, personally lead the troops into Battle??? Jesus MUSTNT lead the troops into battle...he has NO NEED for troops if he tried to do that...his mere presence would be enough...there IS NO WAR if you put Christ as the head of the Angelic Armed Forces...So He CANT be Christ.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Abraham didn't wrestle with anyone; I think you are referring to Jacob.

[Play The Man]

I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

First Commandment

I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them (unless it is the angel Michael, whom you can worship by proxy); for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Fixed

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

If Jesus walked on the earth Pre-Incarnation, name one good reason why he couldnt walk Post-Incarnate?

I never said He couldn't. In fact, He will walk the earth again post-incarnate and we are told exactly what those circumstances will be.

However, you are trying to build a strawman argument since you can't prove your original assertion.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

I never said He couldn't. In fact, He will walk the earth again post-incarnate and we are told exactly what those circumstances will be.

However, you are trying to build a strawman argument since you can't prove your original assertion.

You are the one who contended my assertion, the burden of proof is on you. The only way you can proove it is by claiming Christ walked the earth prior to his Incarnation. Thats a theology I do not accept. You challenged me over the unification of what appears to be a Host Accepting Praise, and I told you how I could unify that without comprimising Scriptural commands about idolitry....I assume you dont accept that method, but you never responded to that.

We have different theological positions on this particular aspect...yours is distinctly Jewish, mine is distinctly Christian. You tell me in no uncertain terms that I am "wrong" I tell you that I am not 100percent Certain if I'm right or not...but just because you tell me I'm wrong, doesnt mean I am, and wont convince me of that.

There is no "strawman" argument...though that was a nice way of trying to avoid the fact that IF you believe in Pre-incarnate Christ appeaing at Will in History outside of the Salvation Of Man (which COVERS Revelation, AND The Gospels) you CAN NOT rule out a Post Incarnate Christ appearing at will in History outside of The Salvation Of Man either...something you, naturally, seem to want to play down...because it implies Christ could walk amoung us in EXACTLY the same manner, as what Paul Says the Host sometimes do. Who knows...perhaps you are right, and some have not just entertained Host and been unaware of it...but have Entertained The LORD Himself in The Flesh and also been unaware...but I highly doubt it, personally.

I understand your side, and I see it as a Valid interpretation, but its not one I hold to. As usual, you havent a clue about what I believe, you've declaired me wrong, ignored what ive said about Revelation and reitterated your belief in a Post Incarnate Christ for that, in an attempt to make me look foolish, when I'd already admitted the Second Coming...whilst completely avoiding my counters, and completely ignoring what I've had to say. Which, Characteristically is what you do EVERY SINGLE TIME you dissagree with me.

Fair enough...I aint out to change your mind. I know what you think, and thanks for sharing that, but you wont make me fall silent, or repent of my position, no matter how many times you tell me im wrong, or try to make me look silly, or maybe, later even say I aint Christian or something. I aint like the Roman Catholics who are tempted to fall silent under your Judgement.

So You can counter the points I actually have raised...or we can aggree to dissagree. That there is called "I Choose, You Decide" its something I often proposition management with. I have made clear the choices, its up to them to decide...but they know what the consequences will be before they do so....that way we all know where we stand.

So the ball is in your court as to whether this conversation continues in the manner of a true debate on the issue...or whether we both walk away.