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  #211  
Old 05-27-2011, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dethbob View Post
Killing a baby is clearly wrong and any interpretation of the Bible or anything else that indicates otherwise is incorrect.

It may be the less horrible choice in some situation, and I don’t envy anyone who has had to make that choice, but I think a judgmental attitude is generally correct on this issue.
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Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
1 Samuel 15:2-3 (New International Version, ©2010)
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”


And yet God saw fit to tell this story to give us insight to part of His nature. The reasons God said this in this instance are different in this situation, but it's not against His Nature for an infant to die. But again taking a life to save another is never an easy choice. But here you have a Christian woman who got pregnant in marriage and because of the fallen world we live in the baby is deformed to where it can't live outside the womb and could kill the mother who otherwise is healthy and has a family. Giving the baby a day of breath in exchange for taking a woman living a full life as a mother and wife who loves God ... to me is the greater evil of the choices.

It's never ok ... or scriptural for any Christen to sit in a judgment seat over anyone. Anyone who does needs a fresh revelation of their own flaws. We within the church help each other in our walk through the Bible and our experiences in knowing him ... but it's never "OK" for a Christian to be judgmental. Leaders in Church Government have to be good shephards and keep out things that are clearly not God ... but to me this isn't a black and white issue.
Seriously?

You are comparing a judgment passed down as punishment from God to a mere mortal woman taking the life of her baby? Unless you are implying that God is in some way commanding her to take this baby's life to atone for something or another then I don't see how these two situations can compare.

Just saying....

ps, Telling another Christian that you feel killing her baby would be a sin against God is in no way shape or form sitting in a judgment seat. How are we to help each other if we don't speak the truth (as we see it in our hearts)?
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  #212  
Old 05-27-2011, 12:23 PM
adamt adamt is offline
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Originally Posted by Neezar View Post
ps, Telling another Christian that you feel killing her baby would be a sin against God is in no way shape or form sitting in a judgment seat. How are we to help each other if we don't speak the truth (as we see it in our hearts)?
QFT denise

people don't have a clue about what judgement is

evaulating someone's Godliness so that you can properly decide your relationship to them is not judgment, it is being wary of false prophets

judgment has to include some type of punishment or discipline,

however, it is a sin of pride to look down your nose at someone and treat them poorly once you decide you are better than they are, take potshots at them hoping to cause others to laugh at their expense and such......
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  #213  
Old 05-27-2011, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by flo View Post
I'm not taking any side in the argument, Crisco & Donald, but doesn't the bible, and therefore God, address abortion by saying "thou shall not kill"?

There's no doubt about that, is there?
yes & no. The Bible doesn't ever say "Thou shalt not kill" (that's a common misconception that's pushed by anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-_____ groups). The 6th commandment is "Thou shalt not murder".

Even with that clarification, though, I agree that it clearly decries abortion. Killing an unborn child is murder. Period.
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  #214  
Old 05-27-2011, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by VCURamFan View Post
yes & no. The Bible doesn't ever say "Thou shalt not kill" (that's a common misconception that's pushed by anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-_____ groups). The 6th commandment is "Thou shalt not murder".

Even with that clarification, though, I agree that it clearly decries abortion. Killing an unborn child is murder. Period.
Oh, thank you for the clarification, Ben.
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  #215  
Old 05-27-2011, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar View Post
Seriously?

You are comparing a judgment passed down as punishment from God to a mere mortal woman taking the life of her baby? Unless you are implying that God is in some way commanding her to take this baby's life to atone for something or another then I don't see how these two situations can compare.

Just saying....

ps, Telling another Christian that you feel killing her baby would be a sin against God is in no way shape or form sitting in a judgment seat. How are we to help each other if we don't speak the truth (as we see it in our hearts)?
Nope .. no implication of that at all. The point of referring to that passage was to bring out an aspect of God's nature people don't like to deal with. The only reason was to illustrate that side of God, not to translate action into this womans situation from that passage. I never compared this woman's situation to that situation. The church often throughout history has tag God's will or commands to their own emotionally charged opinions. When dealing with God and his Word (and again God who is currently existing in the past, present and future) .. could have easily mandated that it is always wrong to medically terminate a pregnancy and He didn't, there's a reason for it. What someone (especially God) doesn’t say speaks and communicates intent just as loudly as what someone does say. So, saying that God would be against this woman's decision if she had an abortion would be your own emotional response to this situation, which in all honesty is fine .. just don't tag it as God's will.

The scriptures mostly used to negate abortion, like God knowing us even in the womb, are used to justify when life starts. That's not the issue here. The pro-abortion movement says that the fetus is not alive and the woman has a right to choose to kill it because it is not a person. I totally disagree with that philosophy or way of thought. Life does start at conception .. and these people were in a situation where they had the reality that they might have had to take a life to save another. The life that they would have taken would have been extremely deformed and had no chance of living long outside the womb, compared to the life you were saving was a healthy woman who could live on to have more children with the man she loved. The other reality is that this man ended up with a dead wife and a dead baby. I'm against abortion 99.9% of the time and I don’t believe with the thoughts behind why it is legal in the US. But I also think that this would be the .1% of the time that it could be a justifiable action. Pursue other options, look at every angle ... but again this would be a decision that would be between them and God and of course everyone not living through this situation can pound their chest and say they could easily take the perceived "high road".

Also my comments on judgment where not aimed at someone speaking to that woman directly. It was the demonizing of the pastor and her that happened earlier in the thread. Telling her that is how you see the scriptures is fine, more so if you actually had a relationship with her than a stranger off the street ... but your right helping each other through life is what we are suppose to do. The exact same actions done with different motives yield totally different results, so the difference between judgment and helping someone is very much a heart issue. My statement was nothing more than a heart check at the people basting others in here.


ps .. I like it when you are "just sayn"
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  #216  
Old 05-27-2011, 06:39 PM
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I love you, Boom.


Just Say'n
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  #217  
Old 05-27-2011, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Boomer View Post

The life that they would have taken would have been extremely deformed and had no chance of living long outside the womb, compared to the life you were saving was a healthy woman who could live on to have more children with the man she loved. The other reality is that this man ended up with a dead wife and a dead baby.
That is an Equal Assumption I addressed in my letter.

If it is right for the Wife to die, then the Medical Centre will not be able to save her whether she aborts or not. Do you not Trust that GOD is in control of the situation? I contend with your notion that there is something good in preventing death in child birth? over the course of history countless women have died in childbirth. We have got so medically advanced, that you seem to imply there is even a choice to be made to...effectively, "save the life" of someone by murdering someone else...and worse...your choice to do this is based on Utilitarian Principles!! What will bring the most happiness, to the most people, What will be most efficient to the greatest number of people.

The baby might die...so why bother saving it, when you could save the woman who could have many more babies??

Just think about what that statement implies...and tell me that it isnt playing GOD. Deciding who should live and die, and who is more worthy of life.

Why dont you adhere to the principle that GOD is Soverign and is in control of all things, if you ask for his will to be done, he will do it. That MAY involve the death of BOTH the Baby and The Mother...but rather they both die of natural causes and your hands be clean...then you make the decision of which one will live...and you try and thus "create" the outcome you want.

GOD hasnt said there is anything wrong in using medicine to help the woman...but he implies that because Life starts...there IS something wrong in using medicine to help the woman IF it is at the expense of another life.

This isnt about Judgement...its about what Power over the natural corse of Human Creation you think we should actually have. I say...pretty much nothing beyond pain control during labour. I abhore Eugenics, I abhore Designer Babies, I abhore the "lets test for disease in our unborn child so we can decide whether to kill it or have it" type attitude.

Trust that in all things, IF you specifically ask, GOD will govern.

(I you two btw)
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  #218  
Old 05-28-2011, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
Nope .. no implication of that at all. The point of referring to that passage was to bring out an aspect of God's nature people don't like to deal with. The only reason was to illustrate that side of God, not to translate action into this womans situation from that passage. I never compared this woman's situation to that situation.

From first post....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
1 Samuel 15:2-3 (New International Version, ©2010)
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”


And yet God saw fit to tell this story to give us insight to part of His nature. The reasons God said this in this instance are different in this situation, but it's not against His Nature for an infant to die. .......
I blame skim reading.


I was actually going back and looking for something that you said that I really liked. I was sure it was in this thread but I haven't found it yet.
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  #219  
Old 05-28-2011, 06:48 AM
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I don't believe that we should kill any child for any situation. If a doctor takes a babies life then that is taking God out of the equation and not letting Gods wish be commanded. All babies are born for a reason. I will never let a doctor tell me my baby should die. I believe in the power of God and I believe in the power of prayer.
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