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  #141  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:06 AM
Chuck
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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
Sorry churck we will have to agree to disagree the proper hermeuntic does not allow for your interpetation.
Nor does it allow for yours.

Citing 1 or 2 verses to build an argument on is awfully close to proof texting is it not?

Humanity is evil. An Oak tree is neither good nor evil. It's simply a tree. I'm not sure when there is a lack of Scriptural support that we should "assume" anything.

It's certainly not a tenant of my faith nor is it a doctrinal issue so to me having opposing viewpoints really isn't an issue.


Thanks for being civil by the way... and I mean that sincerely. You ARE getting better.
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  #142  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:12 AM
Chris F
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Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
Nor does it allow for yours.

Citing 1 or 2 verses to build an argument on is awfully close to proof texting is it not?

Humanity is evil. An Oak tree is neither good nor evil. It's simply a tree. I'm not sure when there is a lack of Scriptural support that we should "assume" anything.

It's certainly not a tenant of my faith nor is it a doctrinal issue so to me having opposing viewpoints really isn't an issue.


Thanks for being civil by the way... and I mean that sincerely. You ARE getting better.
No there is a lot more just do not have the time to did them out. I wrote an exegitacal paper in seminary about it some time ago I wish I had that still and just email that to you. But I was like you till I sought God and the scripture on the issue. He made it clear that Satan ises the world to do harm but God can either protect us or allow it to do harm. Anything else leaves it to conicidence or secualr science and I know you are more biblical than that If i find that paper i will pm you my e mail and send it to you. Have not seen it for 10 years.
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  #143  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:40 AM
Chuck
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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
No there is a lot more just do not have the time to did them out. I wrote an exegitacal paper in seminary about it some time ago I wish I had that still and just email that to you. But I was like you till I sought God and the scripture on the issue. He made it clear that Satan ises the world to do harm but God can either protect us or allow it to do harm. Anything else leaves it to conicidence or secualr science and I know you are more biblical than that If i find that paper i will pm you my e mail and send it to you. Have not seen it for 10 years.
I'd love to read it. And I agree Satan can/does use the world to do harm. I'm simply saying the elements for example are neither good nor evil.

If a bad guy beats somebody to death with a baseball bat the bat is neither good nor evil. It's just a bat. The evil is within the person using it.
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  #144  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by County Mike View Post
Who wrote about Adam and Eve? I always wondered that. I mean, no othe people were there so who knew what to write?
The creation story obviously had to have been written by GOD and passed on, word for word, to Moses when Moses transcribed Genesis. That's easy enough to answer. This is why the early Scribes of the Bible were meticulous in copying the scrolls word for word, letter for letter and brush stroke for brush stroke. If they made one mistake, misspelled one word or forgot to add the serif on one letter, then the entire scroll had to be destroyed and they had to start again from scratch.

Also the story of Adam and his ancestors would have been kept through oral traditions. Men are recorded to have lived 800-900 years back then, so the distortion of oral history that we see today would not have been nearly as pronounced.

Imagine if people lived that long today. We wouldn't need to debate about what the Founding Fathers intended when they wrote certain words in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence, because they would still be alive to tell us. Along with their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers. Want to know what Christopher Columbus was really looking for when he sailed off in 1492? Well that was only 600 years ago, he would probably still be alive and you could go ask him yourself.
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  #145  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Spiritwalker View Post
shhhhhhhhhh........

sorry.. couldn't resist... but things like that are what make me have questions.
It's snarky remarks like this that make me question your intentions for posting in this section. Asking questions and seeking answers is great, in fact we welcome it. However, asking questions solely for the purpose of causing people to doubt their faith is not allowed in this section and is more along the lines of trolling.
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  #146  
Old 02-11-2011, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
I'd love to read it. And I agree Satan can/does use the world to do harm. I'm simply saying the elements for example are neither good nor evil.

If a bad guy beats somebody to death with a baseball bat the bat is neither good nor evil. It's just a bat. The evil is within the person using it.
The world itself, as in the physical elements that make up the world, is not sinful, it's just corrupted because of humankind. Just like milk doesn't go sour because it's evil milk, it's just been allowed to spoil.

However, there is a direct link between mans' relationship with GOD and the health of the planet Earth. When people are following GOD and keeping His commandments, the planet thrives with life. When people disobey GOD and walk away from Him, the planet begins to die. This is alluded to in the Old Testament, but it something that is never really mentioned by most Christian theologians.
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  #147  
Old 02-11-2011, 02:12 AM
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Again, we would have to agree on the definition of "world". IF by world you mean society, the human race, humanity.. the yes I agree... far from perfect.

If you're talking about Earth then no, I disagree. I think it's pretty close to perfect. Whatever imperfection there is would be a result of our misuse and mismanagement of God's creation.
I mean both. And you're wrong Chuck, the Earth itself has been and is subject to God's Wrath as well. Look at the Flood and tell me different.

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How has Planet Earth suffered God's judgment? Why would God judge a rock? A tree? Are the capable of sin?
The planet Earth does not suffer, its inhabitants do. We're getting our wires crossed as usual All I am saying is the Earth has been altered because of God's Judgment against us. To remind us of His Wrath. I believe the Earth once encircled the Sun in a circular pattern. Now it is elliptical, giving us altering temps while before it was always warm, everywhere.

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What happened to the Earth during the flood? Nothing. The waters rose, the waters receded... life continued..
Wrong Chuck. The Flood caused cataclysmic shifts in the tectonic plates due to the immense pressures. The Flood created the Rocky Mountains and it left behind thousands of lakes, wetlands, and rivers...not all of which were bad, but it did change the landscape to be sure. Everything looked different when Noah stepped out of that Ark - including the Skies above.


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I understand that's your opinion and I can respect that but I don't believe that is something you could conclusively prove with Scripture.
What is not opinion is that God speaks to us through nature. He evokes His Wrath at times, through nature, to remind us of His Sovereignty. Take the Egyptian plagues for example as conclusive evidence.


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What makes something imperfect in your eyes? Again an opinion/theory but not supported by Scripture.
Because these places wouldn't exist if the Earth was a paradise - because they are imperfect.


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Are we talking about Paradise or are we talking about the Garden of Eden? Can you point me to some scripture that backs this up? The fall happened in Genisis 3, where do you see God creating new animals after that? Are you talking about chapter 9??
Not everything God has done is in scripture, fact is, most isn't. It's my discernment that tells me these things. Paradise was Earth itself, the Garden of Eden was where Adam and Eve dwelt, but it is also referred to as Paradise. Its common sense, why would there only exist one tiny pocket of paradise, while most of the rest of the Earth was inhospitable?
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  #148  
Old 02-11-2011, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
It's snarky remarks like this that make me question your intentions for posting in this section. Asking questions and seeking answers is great, in fact we welcome it. However, asking questions solely for the purpose of causing people to doubt their faith is not allowed in this section and is more along the lines of trolling.
fair enough.. but seriously .. just asking.. I know I was being "smart arsed" with that comment.. but the cynic in me (in all things..) couldn't resist.
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  #149  
Old 02-11-2011, 05:08 AM
Bonnie Bonnie is offline
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
The creation story obviously had to have been written by GOD and passed on, word for word, to Moses when Moses transcribed Genesis. That's easy enough to answer. This is why the early Scribes of the Bible were meticulous in copying the scrolls word for word, letter for letter and brush stroke for brush stroke. If they made one mistake, misspelled one word or forgot to add the serif on one letter, then the entire scroll had to be destroyed and they had to start again from scratch.

Also the story of Adam and his ancestors would have been kept through oral traditions. Men are recorded to have lived 800-900 years back then, so the distortion of oral history that we see today would not have been nearly as pronounced.

Imagine if people lived that long today. We wouldn't need to debate about what the Founding Fathers intended when they wrote certain words in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence, because they would still be alive to tell us. Along with their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers. Want to know what Christopher Columbus was really looking for when he sailed off in 1492? Well that was only 600 years ago, he would probably still be alive and you could go ask him yourself.
Nate, why did people live so long back then? Did everyone live such long years or was it only those chosen by God for His specific purpose?
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Last edited by Bonnie; 02-11-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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  #150  
Old 02-11-2011, 05:37 AM
Bonnie Bonnie is offline
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The world (as in man) IS evil. The world WAS a paradise, before the Fall of Adam and Eve. Now, it is has been subjected to the penalty of their sin as well. Do you think Adam and Eve's world had natural disasters? Freezing climates?
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Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
And for the record I DO think we would have had natural disasters and freezing climates had Adam and Eve not sinned. I don't connect nature with man's sinful nature. But that's just my opinion.
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What makes something a disaster? Let's agree on that first so we can continue our dialog.
I posted above and bolded your and Vizion's original posts where "natural disaster and freezing climates" were first discussed here and what prompted my ? to you.

I've read your and Vizion's posts since and I agree with Vizion that Adam and Eve's world was perfect and would not have had natural disasters or freezing climates before they sinned (or had they not sinned) which, from what you have posted, you do not agree. So we can just agree to disagree.
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