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  #21  
Old 01-11-2011, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
In the case of infant baptism, I could see it doing more harm than good. A parent's first and most important job is to raise children who love GOD and seek His Will. That alone is more important than education, health, nutrition, etc. A parent who has their child baptized as an infant might be under the mistaken impression that their job of evangelizing their child is done and think that that child is covered when it comes to salvation. Which could make the parents' spiritually complacent throughout the rest of their child's development. So, if that parent does nothing else to teach their children about GOD and Jesus Christ, then the infant baptism could have the unintended effect of consigning that child to Hell.

However, back to the actual question of adult baptism, it does no good whatsoever to be baptized as an unbeliever.

I would put adult baptism in the same category as church attendance/membership and charitable giving/acts. All very good things to do, but without salvation, they are meaningless.

excellent point


it is when parents force their children to believe something that you get what is known as p.k. syndrome

preachers/pastors kid syndrome is a result of a child being forced to learn and believe what their parents believe and not being allowed to fail and resist temptation

then when the first opportunity arises to assert their independence they do, in big stupid ways sometimes falling far from the faith


so the best thing to do is make your kids do right but never force them to believe something
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  #22  
Old 01-11-2011, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
They are not biblical. Most Christin dedicate thir kids (circa Jesus) not baptize.
This is simply factually wrong. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Reformed and Methodists all practice paedobaptism. Christian denominations such as: Baptists, Anabaptists, Pentacostals, Non-Denominational Evangelicals do not; however, they do not constitute most. Scriptural support for paedobaptism can be argued - it will come down to how the phrase: "and your household" is interpreted; however, please list all the Biblical passages that describe the sacrament of a Christian child "dedication" ceremony.
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  #23  
Old 01-11-2011, 10:34 PM
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Here is a Reformed perspective on paedobaptism by Michael Horton.

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1. God has brought us into a covenant of grace and although not all members of this covenant will persevere (i.e., they are not elect), they enjoy special privileges of belonging to the covenant people of God. This was true of Israel (the church in the Old Testament), and the New Testament simply applies this to the New Testament church (Hebrews, esp. 4:1-11 and 6:4-12; Dt. 4:20 and 28:9 with 1 Pet. 2:9,10; Gal. 6:16; Hos. 2:23 and Is. 10:22 with Rom. 9:24-28). Also the parable of the Vine and the Branches. 2 ways of being in Christ: visibly and invisibly.

2. Even though bringing someone under the protection of God's covenantal faithfulness does not guarantee that every member possesses true, persevering faith (Heb. 4:1-11), but that does not mean that it is unimportant as to whether a person is in Christ and his covenant of grace.

3. Children were included in the covenant of grace in the Old Testament, through the sacrament of circumcision, and in the New Covenant (called the "better covenant"), God has not changed in his good intentions toward our children (Ac. 2:38-39) and circumcision has been replaced with baptism (Col. 2:11-12). Therefore, our children must be brought into the covenant of grace and united to Christ through baptism as the people of God in former times were brought into the covenant through circumcision.

4. The children of unbelievers are unholy, but the children of believers are set apart unto God. This is a distinction not only of the Old Testament (see the Passover, Ex.12:1; also the distinction between the "house of the wicked" and the "house of the righteous," especially in the Psalms), but is continued in the New Testament as well (1 Cor. 10:2). How are they marked or distinguished from unbelievers? By the sign and seal of the covenant.

5. Household baptisms in the New Testament are common (see esp. Acts 16:15, 33; 1 Cor. 1:16), and when the jailer asked how to be saved, Paul replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." We are told that this same night "he and his family were baptized" (Ac.16:31-34).

6. There is an unbroken record in church history of the practice of infant baptism. Although tradition is of a secondary value, it is especially important here for this reason: We know for a fact that the earliest Christians after the death of the apostles were practicing infant baptism, with the command of those who were trained by the apostles themselves. Where was the debate, assuming these immediate successors to the disciples were departing from the apostolic practice?

7. Baptism is the work of God, not man. It is not a sign of the believer's commitment to God (which would, therefore, require prior faith and repentance), but the sign and seal of God's promise to save all who do not reject their baptism by refusing to trust in Christ. For the nature of baptism, see Mark 16:16. The references to believers being baptized are to those who have first believed. The first converts, obviously, were adults when they believed, but they evidently baptized their children. The same was true of Abraham, who believed before he was circumcised, but then had his children circumcised as infants.
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  #24  
Old 01-11-2011, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
Well baptism cant be bad for you. particularly not adult baptism as Christ was baptized as an adult...but it follows the same lines as a marriage...Baptism, is a Sacrement...this means the Church have no control over it. The Ceremony is thus totally symbolic and meaningless unless GODs blessing is also upon it

The Church basically is still only doing EXACTLY what John the Baptist was doing. They Baptise with water. But for Salvation you need Baptism with the Spirit. This happens whenever a conversion occures...so it almost never happens during any ceremony at all.

But the Ceremony does involve the convert making a public profession of his faith, and thereby not denying GOD, or hiding in secret what has occured. Sometimes the moment of Baptism is an experience of epic proportions...but most of the time, its actually uneventful...many brought up Christians cant put their finger exactly on when they believed for themselves, rather then basically believing what they had been taught by their parents

in the Church of England, Adults are usually confirmed, rather then baptised...I think thats good for another reason, they say Confirmation is membership of the Church...that takes the onus away from a mystical ceremony that can supposedly force the Spirit of GOD to overcome someone by splashing water in their face...and rather makes it more about community...about the brotherhood, or family involved in the Church...it doesnt therefore claim even to do anything spiritual at all. The Roman Catholics do similar...so similar they actually say there is two sacrements...one for Baptism (infant) and one for Adult Confrimation...I tend to think those are one and the same blessings but given at two possible times

The basis is always thus...man can not force GOD to do anything...everytime a ceremony is conducted that is not to GODs liking or taste...its a sham...regardless of what the church performing the rite will say...same is true for marriage

So the Sacrements are

Baptism and/or confirmation
Marriage
Ordination or Concecration (or people into the church or ground)
Transubstantiation during the Eucharist (this is the only one the Church doesnt pretend to have control over)
Healing of the Sick
Reconcilliation/Repentance/Forgiveness

So to answer your Question mark. No. If the person is not Saved, Baptism is meaningless, whether infant, or adult. It will not bring them Eternal Life, it will not bring them forgiveness of their sins, it will not bring them Salvation. (unless of course they happen to repent and convert during the ceremony itself...but that, of course, would be GODs doing and not the Church...and he's highly unlikely to work like that IMHO...he's not really interested in Ceremony of the Church...so he's unlikely to use that method to suddenly bring someone to him. Its impersonal, and robotic...and he wants relationship and love.
Some Christians only recognize baptism and communion as sacraments.
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  #25  
Old 01-11-2011, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man View Post
This is simply factually wrong. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Reformed and Methodists all practice paedobaptism. Christian denominations such as: Baptists, Anabaptists, Pentacostals, Non-Denominational Evangelicals do not; however, they do not constitute most. Scriptural support for paedobaptism can be argued - it will come down to how the phrase: "and your household" is interpreted; however, please list all the Biblical passages that describe the sacrament of a Christian child "dedication" ceremony.
What role do you see baptism playing in a persons Salvation?
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  #26  
Old 01-11-2011, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man View Post
Some Christians only recognize baptism and communion as sacraments.
some dont really believe in sacrements at all
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  #27  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man View Post
This is simply factually wrong. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Reformed and Methodists all practice paedobaptism. Christian denominations such as: Baptists, Anabaptists, Pentacostals, Non-Denominational Evangelicals do not; however, they do not constitute most. Scriptural support for paedobaptism can be argued - it will come down to how the phrase: "and your household" is interpreted; however, please list all the Biblical passages that describe the sacrament of a Christian child "dedication" ceremony.
i understand but need to admit that i would not consider catholics, orthodox, anglicans, and possibly even lutherans as christians


actually anyone that is a papists can't truly be considered Christians

but i understand your point
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  #28  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man View Post
please list all the Biblical passages that describe the sacrament of a Christian child "dedication" ceremony. [/SIZE][/FONT]

1 peter 3
19 By means of the Spirit, Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20 Long ago they did not obey. God was patient while Noah was building the ark. He waited, but only a few people went into the ark. A total of eight were saved by means of water.

21 The water of the flood is a picture of the baptism that now saves you also. The baptism I'm talking about has nothing to do with removing dirt from your body. Instead, it promises God that you will keep a clear sense of what is right and wrong.
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  #29  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:42 AM
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i seldom defend chris but to be fair he never called it a sacrement


i imagine he knows that a dedication service is just a placebo and patronization for people who were raised to sprinkle
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  #30  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:52 AM
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okay,

if baby baptizing is legit, then it means you can impose forgiveness on someone, which means i could forcibly baptize someone into salvation--- which of course is how the crusades got started which of course is the seed that papism srung from


also, from michael hortons quotes one could reasonably say any parent could baptize any child anytime anywhere even while in the tub one night



also circumcision is a great example of a child dedication service, of course that was during the dispensations showing us how we cannot achieve grace, versus post-resurrection times we are in now where Jesus saves us


eph 2:8-9 tell us clearly you can't earn salvation
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