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Old 06-05-2011, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by adamt View Post
i assumed you would have heard about baptism of the Holy Spirit.....

Matt. 3:11, "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."
Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
1 Cor. 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
Well.... you do remember what happens when you assume right?

I'm just playing with you brother. I'm very familiar with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and I think you've done a great job of posting Scripture to support it. I just don't see any Scripture that would support your position that baptism is necessary for Salvation. I do believe that it is/can be a by product of Salvation however I don't know that you could prove it's necessary for salvation.

Here is KRB's OP and your response:

Originally Posted by KENTUCKYREDBONE View Post
I would recommend it! According to my understanding of the scripture Baptism is a needed step to salvation. I also believe that it needs to be of your own free will.
Originally Posted by adamt View Post
technically krb is right,,,,, now i will let him argue if he believes if it is by water or by spirit, but i believe you must be baptized by the Holy Spirit to be saved, and of course that is up to God, so i assume He gets it done,,,,, still not an act or work to earn salvation
I guess what I'm getting stuck on is the "must be" portion of your post. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying?

Maybe it would help if you could just explain to me how you believe one is saved? What are the elements of Salvation?
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Old 06-12-2011, 07:51 PM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
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Its important to remember what Baptism is.

Baptism is a Sacrement....Now A Sacrement is a special Blessing that The Church has no authority over. They may deliver a Sacrement, but they can not create it.

There is no such thing as the ability to be baptised if you are not a Christian, and there is, essentially, no such thing spiritually as a water baptism.

The reason for this is that Baptism as a Sacrement is a gift from GOD, dependant on GOD and the receiver alone. So a Ceremony does nothing but invoke the blessing, the water does nothing but mirror, what is hoped happens internally.

Therefore, you can get baptized by water, and not be saved, and you can sometimes never have been baptized by water, and be saved. The Sacrement is based on GOD

...however...there is an historical case for invoking the sacrements. Apart from the fact the Scriptures say "ye have not, because ye ask not" and that is the origin of the word "Sacrement" itself.

Why is it good to be baptized? good to be Married? good to receive Communion? Because it is a public profession of faith. It is a verbal and ritual enforced pledge.

The Word Sacrement...comes from the word "Sacrementum" Now...we believe that the word means "that which is sacred" and it does...but that is a modern day religious twist on the word. Sacrementum as a word means Promise, or pledge...and its use was not in a religious setting. Its use was in a Military setting. The Sacrementum is The Oath that is sworn by members of The Roman Legion...it was reaffirmed each year.

When Constantine had his great conversion the Sacrementum was scrapped...why? Because the Christian Emporars believed that the only oath you should make is to Christ...therefore a number of rituals appeared that were effectively called Sacred Rites...and meant to be, a "swearing in" Ceremony of some sort

So...far from being religious...its background is from the Armed Forces...I find that increadibly cooincidental with the fact that the many of the New Testament books are actually about the grand narrative being one of warfare....its not an accident. For who do you suppose it was that GOD inspired to create the new cannon? and what background did they, as Romans, have to draw upon?

As always you have the conjoining of two factors, you have the passive aggressive tactics of the Roman Nobility, working for a political aim (a unification of belief to hold their Empire together) and you have the respectable means through which they use to transfer that message to the public. They use the values of Honour, Respect, Courage, so much so...the names of the official military oath...and the rites of entry into Church membership...and GOD willing, GODs good graces...become effectively the same.

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