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  #21  
Old 12-31-2010, 06:22 AM
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Matthew 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

I'm having trouble understanding how predestination and this verse in particular can go hand in hand... Why would Christ say that someone was not willing if he knew they already had no choice in the matter...

I actually was listening too a calvinist talk about stuff and mentioned a phrase along the lines of Iso-christ?

I guess meaning isolating the teachings of Christ from the rest of scripture but that logic sounds stupid to me...

Granted the bible was inspired by God but Christ is God... How could it ever be wrong to isolate his direct word and study it...? The idea that someone would talk down to someone for focusing on Christ is silly to me.
Crisco, I am not a theologian; this is coming from a guy on the internet - so take it for what it is.

If you read the chapter prior to that verse, as well as the text around a similar statement in Luke, you will find that Jesus is chastising the Pharisees. I am guessing - correct me if I am wrong - that your interpretation of this passage could be paraphrased something like this:

"Jews of Jerusalem, I am offering you salvation through me and you are thwarting my plans. I cannot make you accept me because it is your choice."

I would argue that he is saying:

"Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees (referred to as Jerusalem, here), I am on a rescue mission to collect the elect (your children, the "chicks") given to me since eternity. You are fighting me on this (you were not willing), but I will effectually call them to me."

There are two separate groups he is referring to - you (Jerusalem), and your children.

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  #22  
Old 12-31-2010, 01:53 PM
Crisco
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Originally Posted by Play The Man View Post
Crisco, I am not a theologian; this is coming from a guy on the internet - so take it for what it is.

If you read the chapter prior to that verse, as well as the text around a similar statement in Luke, you will find that Jesus is chastising the Pharisees. I am guessing - correct me if I am wrong - that your interpretation of this passage could be paraphrased something like this:

"Jews of Jerusalem, I am offering you salvation through me and you are thwarting my plans. I cannot make you accept me because it is your choice."

I would argue that he is saying:

"Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees (referred to as Jerusalem, here), I am on a rescue mission to collect the elect (your children, the "chicks") given to me since eternity. You are fighting me on this (you were not willing), but I will effectually call them to me."

There are two separate groups he is referring to - you (Jerusalem), and your children.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer me so in depth and I will do the reading. but I do i have a questions and I mean no disrespect at all by this so please do not be offended

but in your previous post you asked me to read the old book and not the books describing the situation... Your translation of that verse seems to be adding what isn't there..

Granted I'll go back and read the chapter before it like you requested but the verse as it is written is hard to argue that Christ is simply saying I came to save you Jews but your not willing... It's tough for me to picture all the things in your translation next to the actual text.

Again I ment no disrespect I'm just trying to get a grasp on this stuff... I'm still very young in my walk with Christ and have only started deeply studying the intricasies of the actual word.

I was reading John 17: 6-20 up until the 20th I thought Jesus was infact supporting the idea that those who would be saved where chosen already however when I got to

"20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You"

It made me believe that the disciples where chosen ahead of time but not those who will be saved and who not.
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  #23  
Old 12-31-2010, 05:51 PM
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I appreciate you taking the time to answer me so in depth and I will do the reading. but I do i have a questions and I mean no disrespect at all by this so please do not be offended

but in your previous post you asked me to read the old book and not the books describing the situation... Your translation of that verse seems to be adding what isn't there..

Granted I'll go back and read the chapter before it like you requested but the verse as it is written is hard to argue that Christ is simply saying I came to save you Jews but your not willing... It's tough for me to picture all the things in your translation next to the actual text.

Again I ment no disrespect I'm just trying to get a grasp on this stuff... I'm still very young in my walk with Christ and have only started deeply studying the intricasies of the actual word.

I was reading John 17: 6-20 up until the 20th I thought Jesus was infact supporting the idea that those who would be saved where chosen already however when I got to

"20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You"

It made me believe that the disciples where chosen ahead of time but not those who will be saved and who not.
Disagreement doesn't mean disrespect. You are very respectful. In my opinion, verse 20 is just saying that the words of the apostles (New Testament) will be the means (along with the sacraments) which the Holy Spirit uses to save his people in the future.
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  #24  
Old 12-31-2010, 05:56 PM
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Crisco, please read Romans chapter 9. I think it will illuminate some of the issues you are struggling with currently.
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  #25  
Old 12-31-2010, 06:20 PM
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I am not a calvinist and frnakly could not be because to much of it is based on a man's ideas and not soley on scripture. This was why Luter and Calvin did not mix well in the early days and Zwingli went and made it worse

Christina theology can be boiled down to we are all sinners and need the grace on given because what Christ did on the cross. Salvation any other way is impossible. All 5 point have a bit of truth it is when man runs wioht it that is braks down. NateR logic for example while i agree with a lot of it his opinion thta man cannot walk away removes free will and thus menas God create some to diw in sin and others to be saved by default. But we already had that fight thank to Mark some months back. Either way we should worry less about our affiliation and worry more about clining to the cross! Thats all I got to say about that... Any other question on my poiint feel free to PM I do not want to hijack Crisco's thread.
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  #26  
Old 12-31-2010, 10:14 PM
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Crisco, please read Romans chapter 9. I think it will illuminate some of the issues you are struggling with currently.
PTM I read chapter 9 but I'm still not seeing answers...

I feel that if our God included predestination in his plan for the universe it would have been much more obvious in the scripture... It would not be up for misinterpretations.

It seems as though anywhere that the bible is remotely referring to the elect it can just as easily be replaced with the words the saved. Seeing as becoming saved is a matter of free will so is the act of going to heaven..

Could you show me more specifically in scripture what leads you to believe Calvin?
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  #27  
Old 12-31-2010, 10:17 PM
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Honestly based upon reading the scriptures recently I believe that he best explaination is that due to free will no one is born to be saved or damned... But God knowing all things knew who would fall short ahead of time.. The choices in life we made where not destined and mapped out for us by God he only knows what choices we will make on our own.

I may be off biblically but that just seems like the most viable description.
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  #28  
Old 12-31-2010, 10:28 PM
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PTM I read chapter 9 but I'm still not seeing answers...

I feel that if our God included predestination in his plan for the universe it would have been much more obvious in the scripture... It would not be up for misinterpretations.

It seems as though anywhere that the bible is remotely referring to the elect it can just as easily be replaced with the words the saved. Seeing as becoming saved is a matter of free will so is the act of going to heaven..

Could you show me more specifically in scripture what leads you to believe Calvin?
Quote:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,j whok have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”l
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You mean like this.
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  #29  
Old 12-31-2010, 10:33 PM
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Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5hec predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
. . . or this?
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  #30  
Old 01-01-2011, 12:13 AM
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well as i see it there isn't really calvism anymore

you'rer either hyper or four point, wouldn't you say ptm


in which case it would be fair to say we have been leaning towards the hyper side of things in our discussion

also predestined does not mean predetermined as much as it means predesired or predesigned and i think the verses quoted ought to be read with that perspective

even if you don't agree it gives you a different perspective
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