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  #21  
Old 12-18-2010, 01:29 AM
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ONE THING NEEDS TO BE CLEAR: THERE WILL BE NO HOLY SPIRIT ON THE EARTH THEN, THAT IS WHAT BRINGS ABOUT TRIBULATION, THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NO LONGER BE HOLDING BACK EVIL
You're right, but I never said it would did I? Obviously the Church enjoys the leading of the Holy Spirit, but since it will not be there, what then of the Tribulation Saints? How did they come about if the Holy Spirit went to Heaven with the Church?

Miracles. They will be evident, people will see them and they will believe. They will also have knowledge of Christ. Notice there is no reference to the Holy Spirit in Revelation. That's because people will know God did this. They will see and believe. They will not be required to have faith watered by the Holy Spirit, it will actually be easier for them to believe in God than it is for us


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also, imho based on what i can decipher, the anti christ is to come on the scene after the rapture, he's not anywhere in a major leadership role until then
yea

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i also believe there have been many people living that have been ready to be anti christ because satan has to have someone in place at all times, because satan doesn't know when the rapture will occur either, perhaps he has his nominee in place and when that nominee gets too ripe he turns them into a evil worker and preps another to wait in the wings, waiting for the catching up
I agree - Satan has already LOST to God, as it wasn't even a contest. Satan knows what God allows him to know. I don't think he'll know who the AC is until the due time.
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  #22  
Old 12-18-2010, 03:05 AM
Chuck
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Originally Posted by Vizion View Post
Sorry Chuck, I've been swamped at work this week. I have mere seconds to respond most times.

Time to get off our butts and Preach the Word.

NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO IT.

Can you imagine, standing before GOD ALMIGHTY on Judgment Day and being asked what you did all year to save the lost, and in your heart you know you put your self interests before the Great Commission.

You'd be toast. And you'd deserve it. Christ DIED for US. We OWE Him, NOT the other way around. Faith without works is DEAD-DEAD-DEAD. Period.

Our JOB is to Save the lost. But we are preoccupied with WORLDLY LUSTS. And for that many will meet the fate illustrated in that parable of the Ten Virgins.

Side note: I love ALL you guys here, Shawn, Tyburn, You, Foxy, please take no offense. I'm feeling the need to say these things, and believe me, I'm preaching to myself foremost
No worries here brother and I agree with you. Contrary to what some think I was never offended by your post. I think you probably could have worded it a little differently but hey, you could say that about quite a few of mine so who am I to talk??

Good post.... it's never a bad thing to light a fire under some butts from time to time!!
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  #23  
Old 12-18-2010, 05:43 AM
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No worries here brother and I agree with you. Contrary to what some think I was never offended by your post. I think you probably could have worded it a little differently but hey, you could say that about quite a few of mine so who am I to talk??

Good post.... it's never a bad thing to light a fire under some butts from time to time!!
I guess my post originated out of a verse of scripture I once heard..

For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin 2 Cor 11

I heard a missionary to China recently say that he and another missionary went there and met some Chinese Christians. These are people who are ostricized, criminalized, persecuted. The missionaries asked the Chinese Christians what they thought about American Christians. He said that the Chinese Christians (2 of them) looked at each other with a "ummm" sort of expression, turned to the missionaries (who were American) and said, "we think you need more persecution".

Why?

Because the lifestyle we live.

Because many of us cannot be bothered to fight for Christ, to suffer for Christ, and dying for Christ...we won't even let our minds go there. No way.

Because, well, let's be honest....many of us are flakes.

If we continue down that path we will become like the virgins in that parable. God will refuse us entrance into His Kingdom.

Remember this verse which scared the daylights out of me when I first read it: "So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:16

This isn't a debate, this isn't a put down, this is my jealously for YOU.
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  #24  
Old 12-18-2010, 05:52 AM
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This post seems more of an admonishment and an encouragement to me. Remember "encourage each other more and more as you see the day approaching". As far as the rapture happening any sooner because of the things you listed, Vision, those kinds of things have been going on widespread for a long, long time. Paul admonished churches he wrote letters to about many of those same things, and John was instructed to write some of those things to the churches in Asia in Revelation. If we look throughout history, we can see periods where the church as we know it was practically dead (especially right before the reformation).

Like Chris said, there are specific prophesies that must be fulfilled first. I do believe we are in the last days, but honestly, so did Paul. I personally am not one who holds to the pre-trib rapture theory, as I see many scriptures (not the least of which is "the days are shortened for the sake of the elect", etc.) that don't seem to point that way, but it is no point of contention to me, and if I am around when it happens and get taken up before the tribulation, let's just say I won't be disappointed, lol. Regardless, even well-educated theologians can't all agree on the details, which is why there are several schools of thought on it.

One thing that does burn me up, though, is that Tim LaHaye (sp) spent a ton of money building, staffing, and maintaining the Institute for the Defense of the Pretribulation Rapture. I'm sure God was well pleased with spending millions of dollars on that instead of spreading the Gospel, feeding the poor, and showing the world who Jesus is and what He is like in general. Ok, I'm stepping off my soapbox now....lol
The Pre trib rapture is actually a very new concept that was started by a crazy womens dream and then prepetuated since. Tim had to defend it because it is scriptually bankrupt. One would need to assume much to justify in scripture. One thing that is there no questions ask is the fact Jesus said to be ready and waith and watch. If we lived every minute like he could come at any moment than I bet the church would be doing a better job in evagelization as Vizion has mentioned.
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  #25  
Old 12-18-2010, 06:05 AM
Chris F
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For what it is worth and I know few people ever agree wiht me on anything But in my many years of bible college and seminary I have had to study this subject a lot. My denomination is pre trib by which I disagree wiht that theology fully because it is not supported in scripture. As one poster mentioned once the churhc is caught up the Holy SPirit will no loger be here and thus no possible way of redemeption becaus eit is the agent of the Holy SPirit that drws people to Christ. The rapture is simple if you just let the bible speak for itself. In thessilonians the verse every one uses for the raprute we take it for its english but forget the Greek for which it was written. EVERYTIME in the bible this languge is used it speaks about meets a person and then ushering them back. When we are caught up it will be to meet Jesus in the air and usher him back to defeat Satan and rule and reign with him in the New heaven and New earth. This idea that we will simply be up there having a dinner while all heel breaks loose down here is a bad case of fiction. The exact time none of us know but we do know is be ready!
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  #26  
Old 12-18-2010, 08:11 AM
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God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. When God's Wrath is poured out on the earth He will protect His Children. I know we might have to endure persecution from the world and the devil but that is the wrath of Men Not God's Wrath.
Escaping the Wrath of God is Not a new concept. Clement spoke of The Church escaping the Wrath of God like Noah and Lot.

1. God made a away of escape for Lot and his family before He destroyed Sodom .

2. God protected Noah and his family from the flood.

3. Enoch is representative of the church in that he did not die and was taken by God.


Many verses point to the church escaping the wrath of The Lord that will be poured out onto the earth.

1. Luke 21:36 (New King James Version)

36 Watch therefore, and pray always that You may be Counted Worthy[a] to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”



2. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep Thee from The Hour of Temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word Temptation is the Greek work peirasmos that is defined as Trial.


3. "... [Y]e turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which Delivered Us from THE WRATH TO COME. ... For GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." (1 Thess 1:9-10, 5:9-10)


4. Isa 26:20 Come, My People, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: Hide Thyself as it were for a little moment, Until The Indignation Be Overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their
iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


5. Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble He shall Hide Me in His Pavilion: in the secret of His Tabernacle shall He Hide Me; He shall set me up upon a rock.


6. Proverbs 18:10 The name of the LORD [is] a Strong Tower: The Righteous runneth into it, and is safe


7. 1 Thess 5:9 For God hath Not appointed Us to Wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Last edited by cheachea; 12-18-2010 at 08:12 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #27  
Old 12-18-2010, 11:26 AM
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You have a very nice heart and I see a lot of times that it's in the right place.
I try
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2010, 11:39 AM
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For what it is worth and I know few people ever agree wiht me on anything But in my many years of bible college and seminary I have had to study this subject a lot. My denomination is pre trib by which I disagree wiht that theology fully because it is not supported in scripture. As one poster mentioned once the churhc is caught up the Holy SPirit will no loger be here and thus no possible way of redemeption becaus eit is the agent of the Holy SPirit that drws people to Christ. The rapture is simple if you just let the bible speak for itself. In thessilonians the verse every one uses for the raprute we take it for its english but forget the Greek for which it was written. EVERYTIME in the bible this languge is used it speaks about meets a person and then ushering them back. When we are caught up it will be to meet Jesus in the air and usher him back to defeat Satan and rule and reign with him in the New heaven and New earth. This idea that we will simply be up there having a dinner while all heel breaks loose down here is a bad case of fiction. The exact time none of us know but we do know is be ready!
I kind of aggree with you in this case...though I am not certain...I could see the removal of the church at the start of the rapture ONLY used in the case outlined by Vizion...to actually START the Tribulation

But as I outlined...I can see the Tribulation doesnt NEED that to begin, I could see the rapture happening during the Tribulation...I think this is most likely...because I think even during the Tribulation it makes out that Lucifers Reign is contested...It sounds like he rules with an iron fist that wouldnt be needed if he was regarded by EVERYONE as the personification of perfection.

The post Tribulation idea seems the most realisitic though...since when has it ever been GODs Favour to remove Christians from mortal harm? did he make all the Christians who were going to the Trenches in the first world war, vanish because they faced tyrany, oppression, the elements, and mortal death?

No...there is no easy get out clause, The Pre Rapture seems to be used a little as an excuse to make Christians feel alright about the Tribulations because they somehow wont be a part...GOD doesnt work like that...and doesnt need to, as I said in the other thread...A Christian is Guarenteed life after death, so it doesnt truely matter what hardship the Christian faces in the Mortal World. GOD doesnt have to spare us from anything in Chronology...and the Tribulation is within Chronology.

All that Paul says is that there is a Rapture. I'm open as to whether it is before, during, or after...but what I will NOT tollerate is someone telling me or anyone else that they are scoffers or whatever because they have added to Revelation their own little clause which specifies exactly WHEN the Rapture takes place in relation to the Tribulation.

The Book itself has told people to be VERY careful about adding their own bias to the Prophecy. We know there is a rapture...but that really is all we know, the rest is supposition, to say otherwise is very dangerous, particularly if you are then going to deny whole segments of Christondom and lable them as apostate! Does anyone want to post what GOD says will happen to those who dare to mess around with The Revelation when speaking to others

or would you like me to...i'll give you a hint...its the very last paragraph in the Bible
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
My denomination is pre trib by which I disagree wiht that theology fully because it is not supported in scripture.
Of course Pre trib is supported by Scripture! It's just silly to say otherwise. You may not agree with the way the Scripture is interpreted or applied in this case but to say it's not based on Scripture is a lie.

I'm curious though why you would be part of a denomination that holds to a belief that isn't supported by scripture. (according to you).

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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
As one poster mentioned once the churhc is caught up the Holy SPirit will no loger be here and thus no possible way of redemeption becaus eit is the agent of the Holy SPirit that drws people to Christ.
So then the only people who have ever been redeemed or have Salvation are those that have came to Christ since the Holy Spirit has been here? What about those before?

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The rapture is simple if you just let the bible speak for itself.
LOL.... Heck brother if it were only that easy we'd have 1 denomination in the Body of Christ and we'd have perfect unity. The Bible does speak for itself... the problem at times is that we all listen and hear differently.

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This idea that we will simply be up there having a dinner while all heel breaks loose down here is a bad case of fiction.
I wasn't aware that was a part of the Pre Trib stance? I know that's not what I think.

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The exact time none of us know but we do know is be ready!
Amen!!!!!
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2010, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cheachea View Post
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. When God's Wrath is poured out on the earth He will protect His Children. I know we might have to endure persecution from the world and the devil but that is the wrath of Men Not God's Wrath.
Escaping the Wrath of God is Not a new concept. Clement spoke of The Church escaping the Wrath of God like Noah and Lot.

1. God made a away of escape for Lot and his family before He destroyed Sodom .

2. God protected Noah and his family from the flood.

3. Enoch is representative of the church in that he did not die and was taken by God.
Right. They are kind of like the pre-tribulation Church. Like Noah the Church is righteous, which is exactly WHY they are taken out.


Quote:
Many verses point to the church escaping the wrath of The Lord that will be poured out onto the earth.

1. Luke 21:36 (New King James Version)

36 Watch therefore, and pray always that You may be Counted Worthy[a] to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.



2. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep Thee from The Hour of Temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word Temptation is the Greek work peirasmos that is defined as Trial.


3. "... [Y]e turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which Delivered Us from THE WRATH TO COME. ... For GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." (1 Thess 1:9-10, 5:9-10)


4. Isa 26:20 Come, My People, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: Hide Thyself as it were for a little moment, Until The Indignation Be Overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their
iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


5. Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble He shall Hide Me in His Pavilion: in the secret of His Tabernacle shall He Hide Me; He shall set me up upon a rock.


6. Proverbs 18:10 The name of the LORD [is] a Strong Tower: The Righteous runneth into it, and is safe


7. 1 Thess 5:9 For God hath Not appointed Us to Wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
So you're implying there is no Tribulation? At all ? I don't believe any of these verses are saying anything of the sort. Who then are the "the great multitude, which no man could number." if not for the saints that the antichrist is prophesized to make war against

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev 13:7)
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