Do you think the Rapture is imminent?

[Vizion]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I would say there are two things missing for the End Times....First there is no proper world control...at Present Lucifer doesnt have the viechal with which world domination will take place.

This will probably take place after the Rapture - when it would make perfect sense for a world leader to arise, and especially since there will be a "great delusion" poured out on the world that they would believe a LIE (i.e. antichrist can save them)

Some feel he doesnt need it, and will "create" it himself...but he isnt really a creator. I think it is more in his personality to hyjack something that looks innocent, and change it through a few missconceptions into something evil. Therefore I think this viechal must be created prior to his arrival. There is nothing in this world close...the United States is not dommineering enough, China is not powerful enough, Russia is too archaic, The European Union is on the verge of collapse, and the United Nations was made to look so completely powerless after the 2003 invasion of Iraq...that they couldnt even control their own members, much less a whole world full of civilians.

the Rapture will be his vehicle - the world will be in a state of perpetual panic and will be CRYING out for a savior when all their children are suddenly "gone".

Secondly if this is true, who knows how long this Viechal will be around for, innocent, and useful, and positive, before it is taken over...it could be hundreds of years.

But there is another thing that is missing...and that be The Temple. As I said, it is not in Lucifers Nature to create anything but fabrications. He is hardly going to build a Temple, when GOD is to rule from that Temple during the Millenial Reign. I dont see GOD moving into a house the Lucifer built...this means the Millenial Temple must be built prior to the Tribulation.

It will be a false temple, not the real one. Probably just some ramshackle slipshod thrown together quickly. It is the temple of God, but it is built and MEANT to be corrupted by the Evil One.

Right now they are building within metres of it, and have access to the wailing wall...but thats all. Islam still has a large grip on Temple Mount. Again...we dont know how many Temples are yet to be built before the Millenial...perhaps the Israelis will build one and Islam will distroy it...and then they will have to build another...this happened several times in the Biblical past. Even if the next Temple built is The Millenial Temple...who knows how long the Structure must stand before the Endtimes begin?

Finally, most scholars note that every generation feels the End is nigh, they also note that never, before the last 50 years has Israel as a Nation Reoccupied its original Territory...they use this to say we must be close...but who knows how many times Israel will be removed, and replanted...its possible that Iran might nuke them. they might be scattered again...they might yet have to completely rebuild Jerusalem, and the Temple, starting from a position of pre 1939...we make assumptions...and its this reason why we will never be given a date, and never know until its moments away probably

Scoffers will come in the last days. It is scriptural and you sound like one of them. Do not forget, Apostasy in the church is worse than EVER, and so is the world condemnation of Israel. The two biggest signs ever.

It is none of our concern when the Lord decides to draw a line under History. We have been given our tasks to do, we should stop arguing over petty little things, obsessing over how much time we might have left, telling others they are wrong for thinking differently on a matter whose timing has not been specifically revealed to us.

We should be spreading the Gospel, but, lets face it, most Christians don't care much. I daresay I know NON-Christians who seem more Christian than some I have met. We care about our pleasures first and foremost. Few workers will tend the field, most will not inherit God's Kingdom, but, of course think they will. It's right there in scripture.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Vizion

1) This will probably take place after the Rapture - when it would make perfect sense for a world leader to arise, and especially since there will be a "great delusion" poured out on the world that they would believe a LIE (i.e. antichrist can save them)

the Rapture will be his vehicle - the world will be in a state of perpetual panic and will be CRYING out for a savior when all their children are suddenly "gone".

2) It will be a false temple, not the real one. Probably just some ramshackle slipshod thrown together quickly. It is the temple of God, but it is built and MEANT to be corrupted by the Evil One.

3) Scoffers will come in the last days. It is scriptural and you sound like one of them. Do not forget, Apostasy in the church is worse than EVER, and so is the world condemnation of Israel. The two biggest signs ever.

4) We should be spreading the Gospel, but, lets face it, most Christians don't care much. I daresay I know NON-Christians who seem more Christian than some I have met. We care about our pleasures first and foremost. Few workers will tend the field, most will not inherit God's Kingdom, but, of course think they will. It's right there in scripture.

1) Well, that depends WHEN you believe the Rapture happen...some people believe it happens either during or after the Tribulation...if thats even a possibility, then it rules out the probability that the Rapture itself could be the cause for the Tribulation.

Remember...The Revelation doesnt directly mention a Rapture as such....not in the Pauline way you are portraying it at any rate

2) No. Jesus Reigns from the Millenial Temple...it is unlikely to be created out of Evil, and I think unlikely to be used by Lucifer...for we know the Temple remains unshaken by the end of the Tribulation at the Reign of Christ is after the second Coming.

3) I am not scoffing. Your the sort of person who not only forces Christianity on the rest of us...but a specific denominational interpretation. I am well within my rights, to tell you I think your version of the future is bollox in terms of accuracy, and that doesnt forfit my right to be a Christian neither.

4) speak for YOURSELF. The laugh is...as usual...someone on the North American Continent, is lecturing me, about something my Culture is infected with far more then your own. If you think Christianity is dead over there, you should experience it over here...but that doesnt mean there arent afew of us left, and that we dont try to continue with the Great Comission.

So thanks for your polite notice of reminder...but on this website, I truely believe your not only preaching to the converted...but your likely to irritate other Christians, who dont share your interpretation of the order and chronology of the end times. I tried to be civil...but I find it annoying that twice in so many pages, you have seemingly called into question the faith of other members here...first Chuck...now myself...thats not a help to the Kingdom...its a hinderance to its members IMHO

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I tried to be civil...but I find it annoying that twice in so many pages, you have seemingly called into question the faith of other members here...first Chuck...now myself...thats not a help to the Kingdom...its a hinderance to its members IMHO

For what it's worth... I never felt my faith being called into question... I simply sought clarification of the OP.


Which I never got btw... but that could have been an oversight.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Chuck

For what it's worth...

Whatever Chuck, whatever

"I'm feeling like this is more a post of condemnation than a call to action"

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Whatever Chuck, whatever

"I'm feeling like this is more a post of condemnation than a call to action"

Don't get snippy with me Dave.. I know you think you're an expert at all things but I'm pretty sure I know the intent of what I type better than you would.

There is a HUGE difference between thinking something MIGHT be condemning... and feeling like somebody is specifically questioning my faith...


But for you and your gift of reading into things.... they may be the same.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Whatever Chuck, whatever

"I'm feeling like this is more a post of condemnation than a call to action"

You have a very nice heart and I see a lot of times that it's in the right place.

[Vizion]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

1) Well, that depends WHEN you believe the Rapture happen...some people believe it happens either during or after the Tribulation...if thats even a possibility, then it rules out the probability that the Rapture itself could be the cause for the Tribulation.

Remember...The Revelation doesnt directly mention a Rapture as such....not in the Pauline way you are portraying it at any rate

It will happen before the Tribulation. The Rapture will not cause the Tribulation, but it will be a the catalyst for the change the antichrist will bring. The Rapture is mentioned in the Bible in Greek.

Jesus Reigns from the Millenial Temple...it is unlikely to be created out of Evil, and I think unlikely to be used by Lucifer...for we know the Temple remains unshaken by the end of the Tribulation at the Reign of Christ is after the second Coming.

Right. Where does it say in scripture that the Temple of the Desolation of Abomination will be the temple Christ rules from? Either way, even IF Christ sits there, would it be possible for it to be transformed, perhaps instantly into something Holy?

I am not scoffing. Your the sort of person who not only forces Christianity on the rest of us...but a specific denominational interpretation. I am well within my rights, to tell you I think your version of the future is bollox in terms of accuracy, and that doesnt forfit my right to be a Christian neither.

We're not mudslinging, not happening.
“there shall come scoffers in the last days, saying, where is the promise of his coming” (II Peter 3:3-4). Seems to me this verse indicates Christians will be asking that question. And they will be. Christians will be the CHIEF scoffers.

speak for YOURSELF. The laugh is...as usual...someone on the North American Continent, is lecturing me, about something my Culture is infected with far more then your own. If you think Christianity is dead over there, you should experience it over here...but that doesnt mean there arent afew of us left, and that we dont try to continue with the Great Comission.

I know Europe is dying...but, I firmly believe Christianity is on its way back. How? I pray for you everyday, and I know with an absolute certainty that my prayer is prompted by the Holy Spirit and it will not return void.

So thanks for your polite notice of reminder...but on this website, I truely believe your not only preaching to the converted...but your likely to irritate other Christians, who dont share your interpretation of the order and chronology of the end times. I tried to be civil...but I find it annoying that twice in so many pages, you have seemingly called into question the faith of other members here...first Chuck...now myself...thats not a help to the Kingdom...its a hinderance to its members IMHO

Not really. My post is heartfelt and it is an admonition. I included myself as the Chief of Sinners, not you or Chuck. Stick to the arguments.

[Vizion]

Originally Posted by Chuck

No. I don't.

I'm feeling like this is more a post of condemnation than a call to action...

Am I reading this right?

Are you basing this off of what you're seeing here on the forums or in life around you?

Help me out brother! I'm trying to follow you on this one but I'm not sure where you're going.

Sorry Chuck, I've been swamped at work this week. I have mere seconds to respond most times.

Time to get off our butts and Preach the Word.

NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO IT.

Can you imagine, standing before GOD ALMIGHTY on Judgment Day and being asked what you did all year to save the lost, and in your heart you know you put your self interests before the Great Commission.

You'd be toast. And you'd deserve it. Christ DIED for US. We OWE Him, NOT the other way around. Faith without works is DEAD-DEAD-DEAD. Period.

Our JOB is to Save the lost. But we are preoccupied with WORLDLY LUSTS. And for that many will meet the fate illustrated in that parable of the Ten Virgins.

Side note: I love ALL you guys here, Shawn, Tyburn, You, Foxy, please take no offense. I'm feeling the need to say these things, and believe me, I'm preaching to myself foremost

[Vizion]

Originally Posted by Chuck

I'm not sure "we" were told a lie. You may have been given some bad information early in your walk but I know I personally was never taught that. But I get your point.

Lifestyle Evangelism was something that was taught and "practiced" quite a bit in the 80's. I personally believe it was the precursor to the Politically Correct (PC) movement that got completely out of hand and did nothing but hurt our nation. I will tell you that Lifestyle Evangelism will not hurt Christianity. It's hardly an effective way of preaching the Gospel but it won't hurt it. Being aggressive with your evangelism or preaching the Gospel but living a life contrary to it WILL however, hurt Christianity.


So for me I think it's important to do both. We are called to not only share the Gospel actively but to make sure we live a life that is in accordance with God's Word. Of course we are covered by grace and blessed to have forgiveness (with repentance) but we can't rely on those things to justify a selfish lifestyle or sinful choices.

A quote by Brennan Manning made famous in a DC Talk song sums it up best in my opinion...

“The single greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable”

Chuck - you're right - couldn't agree more.

WHEREVER we are we are COMMANDED to be SALT and LIGHT. At the very least the GREATEST sermon ever preached was the one we lived.

That is why we need to wear the holiness of God on our sleeves, and sometimes that requires a boldness to go into those dark places to show people that the ONLY hope they have IS Christ. Because no matter how adament people say they don't need it, they know they do, but without LIGHT they cannot see a way out.


ps. like the quote - so, so, SO true.

[adamt]

Originally Posted by Vizion

The Rapture will not cause the Tribulation, but it will be a the catalyst for the change the antichrist will bring.

very few things do i disagree with you vizion, but this is one of them,


when the rapture occurs, the children of God will be caught up, thus the Holy Spirit with them.

ONE THING NEEDS TO BE CLEAR: THERE WILL BE NO HOLY SPIRIT ON THE EARTH THEN, THAT IS WHAT BRINGS ABOUT TRIBULATION, THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NO LONGER BE HOLDING BACK EVIL


i don't plan on arguing over this topic very much at all, because quite frankly, it is a moot point, prophecy is meant to encourage believers, it is a personal thing, it should not be allowed to be an argument, so i am going to TRY to stay out of it

but i would like to mention the G20 summit, if you want a one world order, it is all there, flying under the radar, prepping the uni-currency as we speak, it needs to be researched


also, imho based on what i can decipher, the anti christ is to come on the scene after the rapture, he's not anywhere in a major leadership role until then

i also believe there have been many people living that have been ready to be anti christ because satan has to have someone in place at all times, because satan doesn't know when the rapture will occur either, perhaps he has his nominee in place and when that nominee gets too ripe he turns them into a evil worker and preps another to wait in the wings, waiting for the catching up