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  #11  
Old 11-23-2010, 08:00 PM
Max
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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
Umm....what is false? I said they ALMOST always get released for those reasons.... Does the UFC still pay the fighters they have under contract when they "cut" them?

and brother...you friggin list BRAD CHILDRESS????

Why don't you say that Jeff Reed is a kicker? Or that Ed Gant was caught using roids? No hate man, but do you even watch football? (I would hope so with that sig, lol)
yes I know i listed Brad Childress, although he is not a player he was listed on the NFL transactions report and I indicated that he was a coach. Also what does Jeff Reed being a kicker have anything to do with him getting released? He was not released because he was a kicker he was released because he was not performing the way the Steelers wanted him to perform. Most of the guys on that list are getting released because the teams are signing other players to their rosters, that is a performance issue. Oh and Gant was suspended the first 4 games of the season, he was released in the last 7 days. If I had to make a guess I would say that it was a lack of performance that caused Gant to be released and not him getting caught for roids. So like I said, you are incorrect when you state that players getting released during the season is almost always a mutual thing.
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  #12  
Old 11-23-2010, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Max View Post
yes I know i listed Brad Childress, although he is not a player he was listed on the NFL transactions report and I indicated that he was a coach. Also what does Jeff Reed being a kicker have anything to do with him getting released? He was not released because he was a kicker he was released because he was not performing the way the Steelers wanted him to perform. Most of the guys on that list are getting released because the teams are signing other players to their rosters, that is a performance issue. Oh and Gant was suspended the first 4 games of the season, he was released in the last 7 days. If I had to make a guess I would say that it was a lack of performance that caused Gant to be released and not him getting caught for roids. So like I said, you are incorrect when you state that players getting released during the season is almost always a mutual thing.

It is a mutual agreement in a lot of cases, and even with some of the guys you listed! Sometimes a team wants to keep a guy, but they just don't have room on their roster for him, so they are forced to let him go. Or, a lot of times players who show a lot of promise ask to be released so that another team who actually needs them can pick them up on waivers.

You conveniently ignore things like ongoing injuries or guys who were only members of a team's practice squad. You do realize there is a difference between being on the roster and being on the practice squad...right? Billingsley, Ratliff, and Gant were practice squad guys, and YES the roids played a part in the team's decision to let Gant go. The Cardinals are DEEP at WR and the last thing they need on their practice squad is a guy like Gant, who isn't that good, and only brings problems with his attitude and roid accusations. He would have probably been cut sooner if we hadn't had injuries to some of our WR early in the season.

Andre Brown was released back in September, in week 1, because he couldn't stay healthy. He was then put on the practice squad, and even though they cut him from the practice squad early this month, they added him back not even 10 days later and activated him to the actual roster. He was then waived and picked up by Carolina. (which you would see if you read the transactions report instead of skimming it for guys with the word "cut" next to their name)

Zastudil was released because of injuries, and the Browns PAID him...

Chevis Jackson was cut in the preseason by Atlanta and then ended up on the Jags practice squad I believe, so there is another PS guy...

Yes, Jeff Reed was cut for poor performance, but you simply saying that in attempt to prove me wrong doesn't give it the proper context. Kickers have an understanding that missing game winning field goals can cost them their job. That is part of football.

Jarvis Moss was also cut for poor performance, but do you have any idea how long that was coming for? Guys who get drafted in the first round and fail to perform or barely earn any playing time in 3 seasons tend to get cut, just ask Matt Leinart.

So because Childress was listed on a transaction report, that makes his firing the same as the release of a player? Why didn't you list Wade Phillips then too?

Basically, you have come up with 2 guys who were cut for performance, a far cry from what Dana claims is guys being cut DAILY. Not to mention, pretty much every guy on your list with the exception of Jeff Reed barely ever got close enough to sniff a starting position and were for the most part D-level practice squad guys. Being cut because you are constantly injured or when you are on the practice squad is completely different than cutting a starter or even a 2nd stringer during the regular season. It just rarely happens. Being cut from the PS is the equivalent of the UFC not signing the guys who lose on TUF. They aren't losing a job, because they never really had one to begin with.

Last edited by J.B.; 11-24-2010 at 05:06 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #13  
Old 11-24-2010, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
1. Sometimes a team wants to keep a guy, but they just don't have room on their roster for him, so they are forced to let him go.

2. You conveniently ignore things like ongoing injuries or guys who were only members of a team's practice squad. You do realize there is a difference between being on the roster and being on the practice squad...right?

3. Andre Brown was released back in September, in week 1, because he couldn't stay healthy. He was then put on the practice squad, and even though they cut him from the practice squad early this month, they added him back not even 10 days later and activated him to the actual roster. He was then waived and picked up by Carolina. (which you would see if you read the transactions report instead of skimming it for guys with the word "cut" next to their name)

4. So because Childress was listed on a transaction report, that makes his firing the same as the release of a player? Why didn't you list Wade Phillips then too?

5. Being cut from the PS is the equivalent of the UFC not signing the guys who lose on TUF. They aren't losing a job, because they never really had one to begin with.
1. this is true and if the player they wanted to keep was better that player would be kept but since the player is low on the depth chart he is let go

2. What does practice squad have anything to do with what Dana said? Dana never said that it was only players on the active roster that are cut every day, he said guys get cut in the NFL every day, which is true. Just because someone is on the practice squad does no mean they are not in the NFL, they are.

3. Andre Brown was waved by Carolina on November 16 2010.

4. I listed Childress simply because he was a member of an NFL team and was released for performance reasons. Dana said guys get cut from NFL teams, although Childress was not cut he was fired. Oh and my list was only for the days of November 16 - November 22 so thats why Wade Phillips was not on it. By the way I stated in my initial post that my list only went back as far as November 16th

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There is a list of players who were released or waved from NFL teams since Nov 16.
5. Not true at all, players who are on the practice squad have a job, they are part of the practice squad, and they get paid for it. The UFC does not have a practice squad, the only way for them to test out fighters is to have them on a card and see what they can do. All the fighters on TUF, except for the ones that are banned because of actions they take outside of the octagon, get to fight on the TUF card. In most cases the fighters who win get another shot in the UFC and the ones that lose their initial UFC fight most often get cut.

You seem to think that only players on the active rosters are part of NFL teams, this is not true. The guys on the practice squad are still part of NFL teams which is why the statement that Dana made was correct.
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  #14  
Old 11-24-2010, 05:12 PM
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I've seen and been part of some pretty silly debate on here before but this one.....


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  #15  
Old 11-24-2010, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Max View Post
You seem to think that only players on the active rosters are part of NFL teams, this is not true. The guys on the practice squad are still part of NFL teams which is why the statement that Dana made was correct.
If you think being on the practice squad is the same as being on the active roster, I'm sorry but you are wrong. The guys on the practice squad are not allowed to compete in games. So you can say that they are part of the team all you want, but it don't make it the same. Can you cut a guy from the UFC if all they get to do is workout in the UFC gym? You do realize that not only are these guys not playing in games, but they are barely getting to practice in pads the later it gets in the season. That is hardly the definition of a true NFL player.

Dana implied that there is a staggering number of players being cut or released every single day, and the fact is it's just not true. Guys who play on the practice squad do NOT play on Sunday, they are essentially a last resort or young talent that hasn't developed enough to be in the league full time yet. Just because they are paid doesn't mean they are really a part of the team. It's also not like they are bound to one team indefinitely, often times players will ask to be released from the practice squad to get claimed by another team who could use their services more. They also cannot be on the PS for more than 3 seasons, or if they have 1 year of playing time on an active roster. Sorry, but being on the practice squad is NOT the same as being "on the team".

Again, using Brad Chilldress as an example is just bad, no matter how you cut it. The guy is a coach, and no matter how bad "Chilly" may have been as a coach, coach's still get pegged as scapegoats for players like Brett Favre who are the even bigger problem. So just like with Jeff Reed/kickers, guys with ongoing injuries, and practice squad guys, you are only telling half the story.

The fact is, the UFC is not the NFL. With 53 men on 32 ACTIVE rosters it means there is going to be a lot more people cut in general. Still, all Dana is trying to do is project the UFC as being on the same level as the NFL and that is just not true. When people are cut from NFL teams, there is a system of checks and balances and ALMOST always a mutual understanding between player and team as to why they are being released, practice squad or not. The players are also compensated fairly if they are under contract, and if they are up and comers who are destined to be on practice squads they still typically get jobs with other teams in the NFL. When you are cut from the UFC, you are gone. There are not 31 other UFC promotions around the country with the same pay-scale and benefits seeking your services.

My intent wasn't to go back and forth with you or anybody else about d-level guys who will probably go back to being auto-mechanics or stay-at-home dads at some point. Even though, I don't think any of those guys were released from their squads because Roger Goodell had a bad day, or because they didn't sign away all their likeness rights. My point when I responded originally was simply that there is NOT a staggering number of PLAYERS (people who actually PLAY in the game) being cut everyday. Even if I conceded to your point about practice squad guys, it would STILL be a far-cry from what Dana is trying to imply.

The bottom line of my post was simply that, in my opinion, when it comes to handling relations between the league and the athletes... NFL > UFC

Last edited by J.B.; 11-24-2010 at 08:04 PM. Reason: typo
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  #16  
Old 11-24-2010, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
I've seen and been part of some pretty silly debate on here before but this one.....


Anybody who thinks practice squad members are the same as active squad members is silly.
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  #17  
Old 11-24-2010, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Max View Post
1. this is true and if the player they wanted to keep was better that player would be kept but since the player is low on the depth chart he is let go
That's not always the case though, is it?



Kurt Warner is a perfect example of a guy who shouldn't have been released, but there are lots of guys like that over the years. A lot of times, it has nothing to do with performance at all and it's all about money. (EDIT: just to clarify, money wasn't why Kurt was released from the Packers, and I know that, but it is why a lot of vets get released)

I'm just saying Max, you gotta tell the whole story. Listing a bunch of PS guys without giving things the proper context misses the point entirely. Dana said what the UFC does is no different at all than the NFL, and that is completely false.

Last edited by J.B.; 11-24-2010 at 06:34 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-25-2010, 06:03 PM
Max
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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
Anybody who thinks practice squad members are the same as active squad members is silly.
I never said that practice squad players were the same as active roster players, for some reason though you want to they and make it seem like that is what I am saying. All I said was they are part of the NFL team, which they are. Its kinda like the guys on the UFC roster that fight on the undercard of a UFN. They are not the top level talent, they are not going to be fighting for a title any time soon but they are still part of the UFC. To say that a player on the practice squad is not a member of a NFL team is just stupid.
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2010, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
That's not always the case though, is it?



Kurt Warner is a perfect example of a guy who shouldn't have been released, but there are lots of guys like that over the years. A lot of times, it has nothing to do with performance at all and it's all about money. (EDIT: just to clarify, money wasn't why Kurt was released from the Packers, and I know that, but it is why a lot of vets get released)

I'm just saying Max, you gotta tell the whole story. Listing a bunch of PS guys without giving things the proper context misses the point entirely. Dana said what the UFC does is no different at all than the NFL, and that is completely false.
Well I was not at the Packers camp when Warner was there so I really have no idea why Warner was released but if I had to guess I would say it was because he did not perform as well as the other QB's that were at camp, but like I said I was not there so i could be wrong.

You are correct that a lot of players get released because of money but there is more than just money that goes into that decision. The team decides if the player is worth that amount of money and performance is one of the things that is looked at.


Once again I never said that the UFC was no different than the NFL, I was responding to your statement that the players that get released from NFL teams is usually a disciplinary issue or a mutual agreement. I stated that is false that players (remember you never stated active roster players and neither did Dana by the way) do get released for reasons other than the ones you listed. Constant injuries, performance, or need for more depth at a position are all reasons that players get released during the season.
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  #20  
Old 11-25-2010, 10:54 PM
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Fighters on under-cards of UFN's actually get to fight. Practice squad members do NOT play on Sunday. That pretty much blows your comparison out of the water.

I'm not even sure they sit in on team meetings. If you wanna tell yourself they are members of the team, go right ahead, but they aren't. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp. If you are on the 53 man roster, you are on the team, if you are not, then you aren't. Practice squad guys are fill-in players who get passed around the league. They can easily become members of a team, but as long as they are on a practice squad, they are nothing more than fill-ins, not actual players in the NFL.

Dana was trying to imply that cutting Gerald Harris is the same as guys getting cut in the NFL. Sorry, but it's not. A guy who is a member of the practice squad getting released is not the same as a guy who is 2-1 with 2 KO of the night awards in his two previous fights. Guys in the UFC get cut at the will of Dana White, guys who get cut in the NFL know it's coming, and they usually know it for quite some time. They are also properly compensated if they have a contract.

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Once again I never said that the UFC was no different than the NFL, I was responding to your statement that the players that get released from NFL teams is usually a disciplinary issue or a mutual agreement. I stated that is false that players (remember you never stated active roster players and neither did Dana by the way) do get released for reasons other than the ones you listed. Constant injuries, performance, or need for more depth at a position are all reasons that players get released during the season.
Yeah, and I pointed all those things out. You are just trying to nitpick and argue with me over one line in my statement without actually reading everything else I have said. I know you didn't say the UFC was the same as the NFL, but Dana did, and that is the core of what I am addressing.

What I said about it being disciplinary or a mutual agreement is VERY TRUE, look at Randy Moss (an actual PLAYER who was released, twice this season). Instead, you wanna talk about kickers like Jeff Reed, who have an understanding that missing a game winning field goal can cost them their job, or practice squad guys who aren't even really members of the team. I shouldn't have to say "active roster" for anybody with the slightest understanding of the NFL to know what I'm talking about. Without naming any kickers who blew a game winning field goal, how long do you think the list of players who were cut from the 53 man roster for performance DURING the season is? I can promise you, it's not anything near what Dana was trying to imply.

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Well I was not at the Packers camp when Warner was there so I really have no idea why Warner was released but if I had to guess I would say it was because he did not perform as well as the other QB's that were at camp, but like I said I was not there so i could be wrong.
What does that have to do with what I said?

Clearly, they were wrong to release him and doubt his ability to be a QB in the NFL, and they did recognize his talent, because it was the Packers who invited Kurt to come tryout for the team. It's also not exactly a walk in the park when your competition in camp is Brett Favre, Ty Detmer, and Mark Brunell. I guess should point out though, they did keep Bret Favre there, so they got that one right.

You seem to be insinuating that I said guys never get cut for performance based issues, and that's not what I said. I simply said that during the regular season, teams do not typically cut the players who are on their 53 man roster unless it's a disciplinary issue or a mutual agreement. Thats what the PRE-SEASON is for, and that's exactly why rosters are allowed to balloon up to 80 people during that time.

Last edited by J.B.; 11-25-2010 at 11:20 PM.
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