Im being attacked :'(

[Tyburn]

I bring my sister with me to church, she is getting married their next year, so at first she was putting in an appearence...but now, often she suggests that we should go. She travels all the way from leeds...40 mins away by car. Over the course of the last two years I have hoped that she would become a Christian.

But today was the first time I cried actually in church for a very long time...and it was because I fear that ive been hindered. By the church itself. It turns out that our Priest is raddically opposed to Calvanism (as am I) but he takes it to the extreme....for him...everyone goes to heaven no matter what they believe or who they are.

He ended his surmon by saying that the cross has been in vein if everything is not preserved...oh...that includes Lucifer.

I felt sick. My Sisters first words when she came out where "I've never heard a priest say that before, I thought I must have miss understood him"

but there is a more sinister aspect to this...which is why I feel it an attack, and not just an annoyance.

I used to be a Universalist myself. I spent a good three years believeing it, and preaching it myself in christian circles. I did it because I cant cope with the thought that someone I might know, and like, who is good, honnest, and moral, might not get to Heaven.

I only cope with it now, by not dwelling on it...and by trying my best not to do anything that might cause someone to reject GOD...and possibly end up in Hell. Its a sore subject for me...and the enemy knows it and the enemy used it.

I came down like a tonne of bricks on the priest afterwards...he's not at all repentant...and quite glad my sister found him contriversial enough to get her thinking.

Now I dont know what to do...my Sister wants to go again next week...she is so desperate to go that she cant make the morning, and wants to do the evening service instead...something we've never done. I dont really ever want to go or speak to that heretic of a priest again...but I will have to...she gets married in that church in about 9 months time...and besides...we're continuing our dialogue by email presently

Is it necessary to say things against Calvinism? Can you just briefly explain how you're being attacked? I wasn't sure after reading the entire post.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I bring my sister with me to church, she is getting married their next year, so at first she was putting in an appearence...but now, often she suggests that we should go. She travels all the way from leeds...40 mins away by car. Over the course of the last two years I have hoped that she would become a Christian.

But today was the first time I cried actually in church for a very long time...and it was because I fear that ive been hindered. By the church itself. It turns out that our Priest is raddically opposed to Calvanism (as am I) but he takes it to the extreme....for him...everyone goes to heaven no matter what they believe or who they are.

He ended his surmon by saying that the cross has been in vein if everything is not preserved...oh...that includes Lucifer.

I felt sick. My Sisters first words when she came out where "I've never heard a priest say that before, I thought I must have miss understood him"

but there is a more sinister aspect to this...which is why I feel it an attack, and not just an annoyance.

I used to be a Universalist myself. I spent a good three years believeing it, and preaching it myself in christian circles. I did it because I cant cope with the thought that someone I might know, and like, who is good, honnest, and moral, might not get to Heaven.

I only cope with it now, by not dwelling on it...and by trying my best not to do anything that might cause someone to reject GOD...and possibly end up in Hell. Its a sore subject for me...and the enemy knows it and the enemy used it.

I came down like a tonne of bricks on the priest afterwards...he's not at all repentant...and quite glad my sister found him contriversial enough to get her thinking.

Now I dont know what to do...my Sister wants to go again next week...she is so desperate to go that she cant make the morning, and wants to do the evening service instead...something we've never done. I dont really ever want to go or speak to that heretic of a priest again...but I will have to...she gets married in that church in about 9 months time...and besides...we're continuing our dialogue by email presently

So, this is an attack on you personally.... how? Taking an incident like this and trying to make it all about you makes you sound incredibly self-centered.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

So, this is an attack on you personally.... how? Taking an incident like this and trying to make it all about you makes you sound incredibly self-centered.

Well...thanks for that

Forget I mentioned it

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Rochambeau

Is it necessary to say things against Calvinism? Can you just briefly explain how you're being attacked? I wasn't sure after reading the entire post.

Yes it is. Read my Siggie...I think that Calvinism is nearly as bad as Universalism. One espouses that GOD doesnt want half of his creation, and one Espouses that GOD will have all his creation.

The Bible says niether. It says, to paraphrase, that those who Choose Life, those who Choose to believe in Christ, will have eternal life.

The mistake the Calvinists make is to think that because GODs omnipotence allows him to know who will make it in advance, that suddenly means its predetermined. That doesnt account for GODs love.

The mistake the Universalists make is to think that GOD couldnt possibly claim victory in the war, unless his entire creation is preserved. Therefore if the cross works, it has already saved everyone whether they accept Christ or not.

Armenianism...or at least thats what my Father tells me my view on this matter is....simply says Salvation is Possible for all, but not probable for all. It recongises that nothing we can do can save us...but in response to voluntarily choosing to accept Christ, which is an ability of ours due to free will, we can know, due to GODs promise, that we shall from that point on be predestined for Eternity, thanks to his enaction of a response. This response happened because GOD now owns, effectively, the lease on Hell...because Christ visited it, and thus, GOD being in a place where GOD isnt, instantly means that place can no longer exist, except by the will of GOD...which is in his nature...he would respect the wishes of a person who didnt want to be with him for eternity...and he respects the athiests also...for as Revelation shows...Hell itself is NOT eternal. It goes into the fire of Oblivion.

Hope that helps

Yes, it sounds like the priest in that church is clinging to a false doctrine and I would get your sister out of there as soon as possible.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by CAVEMAN

Yes, it sounds like the priest in that church is clinging to a false doctrine and I would get your sister out of there as soon as possible.

the good news might be that after the wedding she may not go back...she has no need to attend AFTER the wedding, but she is obliged to put in appearance before.

Actually...she eventually said to me that if what the priest said was true there was no point in him doing his job. because there is no need for a church if everyone gets there, and thus why is he even preaching?

Its funny because we had a good talk on the way back...she's intelligent enough, I think, I hope...to feel that you dont get paradise for free. The conversation finished with the subject of Worship.

What she said to me was, she doesnt like the word, she said, in her circles its not done. I said that its not an obligation, you cant force someone to worship you...and GOD doesnt want robots...I asked her what she would do to make her Husband happy. I said...if she loved her Husband...would she not want to make him happy? it wouldnt be a chore to do so...I said, the response of love is a choice, yes, and an action, yes...but you have to ask yourself, why you have decided to love...if you dont want to make the object of your affection happy.

I told her the GOD had listed ways in which we can make him happy, and that if we choose to love him, then we know what we can do that will please him. I said to her that everyone oughta have birds...and everyone oughta SEE for themselves the miracle of life in creation...I told her that any doubt I had about Chance gets wipped away everytime I think of my baby birds....I saw life appear from nothing. I saw the egg, I saw the baby, I saw it grow, open its eyes, gain a will....if you saw that you wouldnt be dumb enough to say its natural...its not natural at all...its supernatural...I said...you might have an instinct that tells a bird to warm an egg...but how does it know to start after the third, and to incubate for a PRECISE period of time?? I said that that goes beyond instinct...that is design...no question about it...someone has designed the whole process...I said if she believed that happened throughout all creation, and believed that GOD was responsible...would she not think he has an absolute right to be egotistical and self loving...of COURSE he loves himself...he IS perfect, and look at what he has done.

She looked at me a little like

So I stopped then

[Neezar]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I told her the GOD had listed ways in which we can make him happy, and that if we choose to love him, then we know what we can do that will please him. I said to her that everyone oughta have birds...and everyone oughta SEE for themselves the miracle of life in creation...I told her that any doubt I had about Chance gets wipped away everytime I think of my baby birds....

She looked at me a little like

So I stopped then

[Neezar]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I told her the GOD had listed ways in which we can make him happy, and that if we choose to love him, then we know what we can do that will please him. I said to her that everyone oughta have birds...and everyone oughta SEE for themselves the miracle of life in creation...I told her that any doubt I had about Chance gets wipped away everytime I think of my baby birds....

She looked at me a little like

So I stopped then

Dave, I felt that way after I had my son. I haven't doubted the existence of God in many, many years. And I remember many times watching my son lay in his crib sleeping and thinking that no one who had ever experienced that and felt love like that could possibly deny God.

Dave I have to say that you have a gross misunderstanding of what calvinism really is. Unfortunately you probably have had a bad experience with someone who did not espouse what the theology of calvinism really teaches. There is no way you could possibly listen to a preacher like John Piper and come away believing that calvinism supports a loveless God.

Now I know that this can turn into a long drawn out argument. I am not here to try and convince you of calvinism, but I would like to properly inform you of the teaching of Calvin and the like. These are secondary issues and we need not divide on them, but we do need to properly understand each other.

If a armenian like Greg Laurie and a calvinist like Mark Driscoll can get together on the same stage to preach the word of God, than we can also get together to discuss our theological differences.