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  #21  
Old 02-26-2009, 07:29 PM
Crisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie
The case may ultimately die without any ramifications to GSP and his camp, but I don't think it's a waste of time.

They definitely need to implement new rules about who applies the vaseline and who goes in the cage in between rounds. This needs to be for all fights no matter where they take place--not just in certain states/countries...

I don't care for GSP or BJ Penn, but I do care if someone does something (intentional or not) to give himself an unfair advantage. That is cheating! I don't care how you want to quibble about how much or little vaseline was there or that it wasn't intentional.

BJ Penn is the most flexible fighter I've seen to date in the cage. He's like a rubber man and he should have been able to get his legs up there at that point in the fight, but they kept slipping down. He does seem to gas fast when he's come up to 170 and GSP more than likely would have won. But, I didn't expect to see such an overwhelming one-sided fight. So I definitely think the grease affected his ability to do what he does best.

What's been shocking to me is that people for GSP (in this particular case) have just wanted to blow it all off by saying, "oh it was just a miniscule amount or it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome, it wasn't intentional or BJ Penn always whines when he loses (which does look to be true), etc...". None of that is the point! The point is did he have an unfair advantage against his opponent due to something that was done by him or his camp (intentional or not!)!

I doubt any investigation will end up accusing GSP of cheating, but I do hope it changes things so that it eliminates or at least makes it harder for this type of thing to happen. It's to GSP's or any fighter's benefit to make sure there's no ? hanging over his/their win(s).

Winning is great! Losing sucks! But if you win by cheating, you're still a LOSER! (IMHO)
I understand that Bonnie and I agree. This is little ifferent then an illegal blow to the grown. It gives a fighter an unfair advantage. Hell take a point off of GSP's scorecard.

I've watched GSP's fights and wouldn't call myself a fan as much as I'm in awe of his skills. I'm a Matt Hughes Fan plan and simple but I respect GSP. After watching all of those fights I do not believe that any single fight would have gone different.

I'm glad they are changing the rules and I think GSP and Penn should just move on. There is no point in the drama because the investigation is underway and the rules have changed for the fights. Let them do their jobs. Fighters fight and commisions talk.

GSP is the undisputed champion of the world regardless of what some believe.
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2009, 07:50 PM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisco
GSP is the undisputed champion of the world regardless of what some believe.
He's not though. Thats the point. Its very much disputed.

Champion of the world maybe...but he's disputed.
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2009, 07:59 PM
TDPARKASH
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good point, the investigation is a waste of time not re-evaluating the policy around "greasing"

In my book, cheating is something that is done intentionally. Having an unfair advantage due to careleness is not "cheating" but is still not fair. Like a false start in a race, that the judges miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie
The case may ultimately die without any ramifications to GSP and his camp, but I don't think it's a waste of time.

They definitely need to implement new rules about who applies the vaseline and who goes in the cage in between rounds. This needs to be for all fights no matter where they take place--not just in certain states/countries...

I don't care for GSP or BJ Penn, but I do care if someone does something (intentional or not) to give himself an unfair advantage. That is cheating! I don't care how you want to quibble about how much or little vaseline was there or that it wasn't intentional.

BJ Penn is the most flexible fighter I've seen to date in the cage. He's like a rubber man and he should have been able to get his legs up there at that point in the fight, but they kept slipping down. He does seem to gas fast when he's come up to 170 and GSP more than likely would have won. But, I didn't expect to see such an overwhelming one-sided fight. So I definitely think the grease affected his ability to do what he does best.

What's been shocking to me is that people for GSP (in this particular case) have just wanted to blow it all off by saying, "oh it was just a miniscule amount or it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome, it wasn't intentional or BJ Penn always whines when he loses (which does look to be true), etc...". None of that is the point! The point is did he have an unfair advantage against his opponent due to something that was done by him or his camp (intentional or not!)!

I doubt any investigation will end up accusing GSP of cheating, but I do hope it changes things so that it eliminates or at least makes it harder for this type of thing to happen. It's to GSP's or any fighter's benefit to make sure there's no ? hanging over his/their win(s).

Winning is great! Losing sucks! But if you win by cheating, you're still a LOSER! (IMHO)
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2009, 08:11 PM
Crisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
He's not though. Thats the point. Its very much disputed.

Champion of the world maybe...but he's disputed.
The only people disputing him as champion are BJ penn fans and BJ penn.

Everyone knows GSP destroyed Penn. Plain and simple.
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  #25  
Old 02-26-2009, 08:26 PM
logrus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDPARKASH
Steriods is not the same thing as GREASING. As i have mentioned earlier, the owness of steriods falls on the fighter. In this case, it falls on the corner. However, if GSP was aware of it, then on the fighter and it was pre-empt.

cheating is not the same thing as a mistake. Can you use steriods by mistake? NO grey area

Can your corner be careless in his application of vaseline and not rub his hands off? Yes.........it it was pre-empt, then NO grey area.

I don't know if people are mising the point here regarding pre-empt.
Cheating is cheating whether you do it or your trusted corner does it. IF a fighter is held accountable for what he puts into his body, then a fighter should be held accountable for whats applied to his body.

I know if I were to get busted for roids and said my nutrition/dietitian gave them to me you would argue I still knowingly took them. SO why not argue that Gsp knowingly had the vasoline on him.

How do you not know as a fighter or corner man, that the person rubbing the goop cant be the same guy to immediately do the rub down technique.

As for mistakes steroids can be ingested as a mistake, its called lacing and all the companies have done it from time to time. There plenty of cases that support the fact lacing does happen.
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  #26  
Old 02-26-2009, 08:32 PM
Crisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logrus
Cheating is cheating whether you do it or your trusted corner does it. IF a fighter is held accountable for what he puts into his body, then a fighter should be held accountable for whats applied to his body.

I know if I were to get busted for roids and said my nutrition/dietitian gave them to me you would argue I still knowingly took them. SO why not argue that Gsp knowingly had the vasoline on him.

How do you not know as a fighter or corner man, that the person rubbing the goop cant be the same guy to immediately do the rub down technique.

As for mistakes steroids can be ingested as a mistake, its called lacing and all the companies have done it from time to time. There plenty of cases that support the fact lacing does happen.
Sherk
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  #27  
Old 02-26-2009, 09:05 PM
logrus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisco
Sherk
That poor guy busted his a$$ to prove his innocence and got 6 months, James Tony said ya I did it and got 6 months. Nate the Great also tested positive and proved he took supplements that was tainted.

For a long while people were testing positive on the base and nobody knew why til it came back that the product Orange was majorly laced.

Lance Armstrong tested positive for roids and if im not mistaken it was found that it was from some creme he put on his body. It just was in the legal limit for cycling.

You have to have a PHD in Chem to know what the ingredients in supplements are. You dont need to have a Phd to understand that grease applied to the head and then directly to the back is cheating and against the rules.
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  #28  
Old 02-26-2009, 09:06 PM
TDPARKASH
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We just have different definitions of cheating. If you were taking pills, without knowing they were steriods, then that's not "cheating in my book". It's an unfair advantage for sure and still should have reprcussions. I guess for me cheating is a pre-empt strategy to create an unfair advantage.

IF GSP knowingly knew what his corner was doing and it can be proven, then i would strip him and suspend him for at least 6 months.

As it stands, would you strip him of the belt?



Quote:
Originally Posted by logrus
Cheating is cheating whether you do it or your trusted corner does it. IF a fighter is held accountable for what he puts into his body, then a fighter should be held accountable for whats applied to his body.

I know if I were to get busted for roids and said my nutrition/dietitian gave them to me you would argue I still knowingly took them. SO why not argue that Gsp knowingly had the vasoline on him.

How do you not know as a fighter or corner man, that the person rubbing the goop cant be the same guy to immediately do the rub down technique.

As for mistakes steroids can be ingested as a mistake, its called lacing and all the companies have done it from time to time. There plenty of cases that support the fact lacing does happen.
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  #29  
Old 02-26-2009, 09:18 PM
atomdanger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDPARKASH
Steriods is not the same thing as GREASING. As i have mentioned earlier, the owness of steriods falls on the fighter. In this case, it falls on the corner. However, if GSP was aware of it, then on the fighter and it was pre-empt.

cheating is not the same thing as a mistake. Can you use steriods by mistake? NO grey area

Can your corner be careless in his application of vaseline and not rub his hands off? Yes.........it it was pre-empt, then NO grey area.

I don't know if people are mising the point here regarding pre-empt.
YES YOU CAN USE BY MISTAKE,
and no the "owness" of steroids do not fall on the fighter.

What about fighters who get supplements from their trainers?
It can happen, its a case to case basis, just like the grease.

I don't know how you wouldn't notice somebody rubbing grease on your back.
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  #30  
Old 02-26-2009, 09:22 PM
atomdanger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritwalker
Well.. at best.. it was a minimal effect on the fight..

And some people (not you) want to complain that it was intentional.. and that I don't really see.. but granted.. GSP seems to have a slight history in this regard.
In my eyes it was intentional, but to me it doesn't matter,
they were warned, and it happened again after the next round.
That should have been a DQ in my eyes.


They were warned after the first round, then AGAIN after the second.
How did they forget in a 5 minute time frame that they cannot grease his back?
Jackson has been doing this WAYYYY too long for this to have just been an accident,
he knows what you can and cannot do.

I don't really care if was intentional anyway,
sometimes fence grabs, blows to the back of the head, etc... Just happen
(instinct, etc..) But there should still be some sort of punishment.
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