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  #11  
Old 06-09-2010, 01:00 AM
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Very well said...

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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
What I am saying is that it's one of those things that isn't even in the same league as using PED's. Commissions are different in every state, and that is one of the biggest problems in both sports. Altering the rules after the fact only shows that there was oversight in the first place. The commission saw what GSP's corner did, and if they felt he was not in compliance with the rules, they should have stopped the fight, or taken a point, and even issued fines/suspensions. They did none of those things, and all investigations into the matter found nothing, so they dropped it.

A few fighters have complained about it with GSP, and they obviously would know, and I don't doubt that he felt slick, as I'm sure it's happened with a lot of fighters. However, the degree to which it is taken by those looking to label GSP a cheater is absolutely comical. Having some extra vaseline end up on you between rounds is not the same as injecting EPO or HGH into your bloodstream (which an athlete will always know is cheating). Does that mean GSP or his corner wasn't cheating on purpose? No, it doesn't, because none of us know for sure. I just personally think that people who harp on the greasing incident over and over sound silly at this point. The only reason it still has any steam at all is because BJ Penn and his fans are still butt-hurt over losing to GSP.

Steroid use = Serious Business

GreaseGate = Nonsense

One can be actually be detected using the human eye and can be corrected on the spot as long as people are doing their rather easy jobs, the other requires extensive scientific testing that costs hundreds of millions of dollars to stay ahead of the cheaters.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2010, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
What I am saying is that it's one of those things that isn't even in the same league as using PED's. Commissions are different in every state, and that is one of the biggest problems in both sports. Altering the rules after the fact only shows that there was oversight in the first place. The commission saw what GSP's corner did, and if they felt he was not in compliance with the rules, they should have stopped the fight, or taken a point, and even issued fines/suspensions. They did none of those things, and all investigations into the matter found nothing, so they dropped it.

A few fighters have complained about it with GSP, and they obviously would know, and I don't doubt that he felt slick, as I'm sure it's happened with a lot of fighters. However, the degree to which it is taken by those looking to label GSP a cheater is absolutely comical. Having some extra vaseline end up on you between rounds is not the same as injecting EPO or HGH into your bloodstream (which an athlete will always know is cheating). Does that mean GSP or his corner wasn't cheating on purpose? No, it doesn't, because none of us know for sure. I just personally think that people who harp on the greasing incident over and over sound silly at this point. The only reason it still has any steam at all is because BJ Penn and his fans are still butt-hurt over losing to GSP.

Steroid use = Serious Business

GreaseGate = Nonsense

One can be actually be detected using the human eye and can be corrected on the spot as long as people are doing their rather easy jobs, the other requires extensive scientific testing that costs hundreds of millions of dollars to stay ahead of the cheaters.
I really don't see the point in testing anymore, sure people test every day and still pass so if you not going to become strict on the subject then why test at all. We havent had a pos test in a couple yrs and I wouldn't doubt we have had tons of fighters under the radar.

If were not going to change the way we test then dont bother and just allow it. Thats the only way we even the field.
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  #13  
Old 06-09-2010, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logrus View Post
I really don't see the point in testing anymore, sure people test every day and still pass so if you not going to become strict on the subject then why test at all. We havent had a pos test in a couple yrs and I wouldn't doubt we have had tons of fighters under the radar.

If were not going to change the way we test then dont bother and just allow it. Thats the only way we even the field.
No way Jose!

I absolutely disagree. We actually have positive tests quite frequently, but just because there are people who go to great lengths to cheat doesn't mean we should lay down and let them do it. Plus, by allowing it and accepting it, it forces those who don't want to use those drugs to have to use them to compete.

We should WANT our sports to be as clean and free of this nonsense as possible, and we should WANT our athletes to embrace the best possible testing there is available. I have been saying that since the idea of OST's was brought to the table by Mayweather back in December. I think they need to get strict across the board, and allowing the USADA/WADA style tests is the best way to do that.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logrus View Post
I really don't see the point in testing anymore, sure people test every day and still pass so if you not going to become strict on the subject then why test at all. We havent had a pos test in a couple yrs and I wouldn't doubt we have had tons of fighters under the radar.

If were not going to change the way we test then dont bother and just allow it. Thats the only way we even the field.
i totally agree that the way we are testing now is a bad way of testing. it is way too easy to find loopholes around it, as surely many fighters do. joe rogan has stated that he knows of many fighters who take steroids, but he won't release their names. and anyone educated in the sport knows that there are indeed abusers.

i agree with koscheck that we need olympic level drug testing. if we are to be the best sport, then we need the BEST testing. this is a dangerous sport. people could die in the octagon. its fighting. we need to improve testing to secure the maximum level of safety with the fighters.
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
No way Jose!

I absolutely disagree. We actually have positive tests quite frequently, but just because there are people who go to great lengths to cheat doesn't mean we should lay down and let them do it. Plus, by allowing it and accepting it, it forces those who don't want to use those drugs to have to use them to compete.

We should WANT our sports to be as clean and free of this nonsense as possible, and we should WANT our athletes to embrace the best possible testing there is available. I have been saying that since the idea of OST's was brought to the table by Mayweather back in December. I think they need to get strict across the board, and allowing the USADA/WADA style tests is the best way to do that.
When you think about it we rarely do bust a fighter for PED, the last one I could think of goes back to UFC 94 in 09 and we had what 2 in all of 08. When you consider fights per year held in the UFC and fighters fighting on each card.

I am willing to bet way more are under PED influence.

I want our sports to be clean but lets face it, with the cost of agressive testing, we will never have a clean sport. An just when you think you have nailed the juice, lab rats have already produced an even better version of the drug. Thats proven as well.
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  #16  
Old 06-09-2010, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by que View Post
. this is a dangerous sport. people could die in the octagon. its fighting. we need to improve testing to secure the maximum level of safety with the fighters.
It's bound to happen sooner or later on one of the major levels of the sport, such as the UFC. Nobody wants to see it, but it's bound to happen.

People like to suggest that Boxing is so much more brutal because of the deaths we have seen, but the reason we don't see it in MMA at this point to any great notable extent is because of how young the sport is. Many of the Boxers who have died after a fight had prior injuries that were unknown before hand, and some have died from only one stiff KO punch (such as Becky Zerelentes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clVmtqIdNKs).

MMA uses much smaller gloves, and anytime you beat or choke a person into unconsciousness, there is that chance that they don't wake up, or that it causes some other problem that leads to death. It's not like all those Boxers just died right there in the ring, a lot of them left the ring on their own accord and didn't die until days later.

I think it's important for the sports to be as strict as possible when it comes to the safety of the fighters, especially when it comes to things like random blood and urine testing, which is fully within their capabilities and does nothing to change the actual rules of the game itself. The UFC should be at the forefront of this, as they are in a unique position being the top dog in the relatively new sport of MMA. Dana always says that he doesn't want to make the same mistakes Boxing has made, well here is a chance to do just that. Zufffa does not need the commissions to mandate what kind of drug testing they choose to submit their employees/contracted fighters to.

Last edited by J.B.; 06-09-2010 at 03:06 AM.
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  #17  
Old 06-09-2010, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logrus View Post
When you think about it we rarely do bust a fighter for PED, the last one I could think of goes back to UFC 94 in 09 and we had what 2 in all of 08. When you consider fights per year held in the UFC and fighters fighting on each card.

I am willing to bet way more are under PED influence.

I want our sports to be clean but lets face it, with the cost of agressive testing, we will never have a clean sport. An just when you think you have nailed the juice, lab rats have already produced an even better version of the drug. Thats proven as well.
You are condensing the entire sport of MMA into only the UFC though.

The Athletic Commissions across the country license and test tons of fighters, and they sanction fights all the time. Just because it's not always the highest levels (where people are more often paid to shut up than in the cases of smaller promotions) doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Guys get popped in Boxing and MMA all the time, not as much as it probably should, but it does happen.

The WADA style testing is the best way to combat those cheaters, and preserve their samples for later testing. A lot of times it's testing that comes years later that ends up solving a crime, but they didn't have the technology to do it at the time. That's why we collect little traces of evidence to hold onto as they go along. That's why it's the best method, and that's why the cheaters are the only ones who are against it.

The idea that it costs too much is absurd. When people say "let's random drug test people who are on welfare", then I say it costs too much. But when you are talking about a company like the UFC who is raking in money hand over fist and they only have around 200 fighters at any one given time, I call BS.
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  #18  
Old 06-09-2010, 05:29 AM
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you would have to be a real blind GSP hater or a member of aka to actually cheer for Koscheck in this fight. Hes such a dick but this fight is more evenly matched then most people think but GSP still has the edge
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  #19  
Old 06-09-2010, 06:43 AM
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Kos is a dick, but he's got me totally hyped for the fight and back on the GSP wagon for the first time since their first fight!
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  #20  
Old 06-09-2010, 11:07 AM
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If everybody juiced, we'd have fewer boring fights. Everyone would be in there raging.

As for the greasing, GSP very well may have. The thing is, it wasn't against the rules. The way the rules were written, it only said something to the effect of "a fighter can not have EXCESSIVE grease on his face or body". How much is excessive?
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