Mark Twain's Autobiography finally to be published

Originally Posted by adamt

what the saying means is that no matter how rotten a person is he can always hide behind patriotism.

No, the saying means that the purpose of patriotism is to give scoundrels something to hide behind.

Originally Posted by adamt

hitler was a patriot to germany. it doesn't make him good. or bad.

Hitler was an evil, self serving scumbag. If he had been a patriot, history would have run much better for everyone.

Originally Posted by adamt

everyone is a patriot to somewhere or something.

WHAT?

Originally Posted by adamt

bin laden is more of a patriot to islam than we are to america ... so you are agreeing with me right?

Um ... no.

[adamt]

do you have any idea what patriot means?

do you think patriot is exclusive to americans?

let me define it for you....

patriot: one who loves and defends his or her country or nation


if you think being a patriot is virtuous you're an idiot.

I am a patriot of america, i am proud to be an american, not proud that i am a patriot of something.

yes, hitler was evil and self serving, but he was a patriot of germany nonetheless. you can not find virtue in being a patriot. you can only judge that which they are a patriot of. and there was none in germany at that time.

if patriotism in and of itself is a virtue, then so is dying. By your logic anyways. My logic says that dying is not what is virtuous, it could be depending on how and why but not necessarily

“if you think being faithful is virtuous you're an idiot.

yes, hitler was evil and self serving, but he was faithful to germany nonetheless. you can not find virtue in being faithful. you can only judge that which they are faithful to.

if faithfulness in and of itself is a virtue, then so is dying. By your logic anyways.”

Feel free to plug the name of any virtue into your argument; it works out the same every time.

Originally Posted by adamt

if you think being courageous is virtuous you're an idiot.

if you think being honest is virtuous you're an idiot.

if you think being kind is virtuous you're an idiot.

yes, hitler was evil and self serving, but he was kind to germany nonetheless. you can not find virtue in being kind. you can only judge that which they are kind to.

if kindness in and of itself is a virtue, then so is dying. By your logic anyways.

Does this make any sense?

[adamt]

Originally Posted by Dethbob

“i'm an idiot".

yes you are, but that is beside the point, the point is, you are inserting virtues into my wording. Patriotism in NOT a virtue.

patriotism is loving one's country or nation,

bin laden loves and would die for his nation (nation of islam) that makes him a patriot of islam. That my stupid, wicked friend does not make him virtuous.

you are a patriot of america, that does not make you virtuous.

sorry

deal with it

[NateR]

I tend to default to George Washington's understanding of patriotism in America:

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

Given the historical context of this statement, Washington was specifically referring to Judeo-Christian beliefs and morality (what the nation was founded upon).

How other nations define patriotism is irrelevant. This is America. Other countries do things their own way, we do things the right way.

[flo]

Originally Posted by Dethbob

Patriotism is a virtue, a good and healthy attitude for a citizen to have toward their own nation. It binds a nation together, contributes to a sense of common purpose, and permits the kind of stability in which individual rights can flourish. Unfortunately stability also tends to encourage the proliferation of spoiled brats who believe that virtue is for the stupid, and wickedness is a sign of maturity.

Well said!

[flo]

Great GW quote, Nate. The more I learn about him, the more I have to admire. Have you read "George Washington's Sacred Fire" by Peter Lillback?

http://www.amazon.com/George-Washing.../dp/0978605268
Beck had the author on and was touting the book, it sounds very good.

[flo]

Originally Posted by NateR

This is America. Other countries do things their own way, we do things the right way.

Heh, gotta love that!

I believe in the United States of America, as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.
I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.
— William Tyler Page, The American's Creed