Closure of Guantanamo

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Excuse me...but without the rest of the world you will never win this war. Its a permanet ongoing thing anyway...like I pointed out, there will always be extremists and terrorists.

The United Nations would do fine without the United States...it would probably move to Central Europe where the Court of Appeals and the Human Rights Courts are...incase you hadnt realized...The United States pretty much ignored the United Nations ever since it violated International Law...You only eve use it when you dont want to actually mount a campaign...for example...you dont really want to invade Palastine...soo you turn to the United Nations...but it doesnt fool the rest of the world into believing that The United States actually values the UN at all. Look at Lebannon, that was another place. Rather then punish Israel when she steps out of line, you leave it to the United Nations....You kinda cant have it both ways...if you dont respect and use the UN in times of strife...why do you expect them to help you or listen to you at all?

In a Consortium it doesnt work when one person out of a number of equals says "I know what is right and I'm doing it whether you listen to me or not" and then when a Allied Force (like Israel) gets into trouble (Like Leb or Pal) go running to the Consortium and say "I really think we should work together to tackle the issue of Terrorism here" That is EXACTLY what the Bush Administration have bassically done...and they wonder why some Europeans do not understand America.

Now the United Nations later sanctioned the Iraqi war in terms of clear-up opporations...but you need to be fully aware that its not just American Forces who are in that war...its a number of Countries...when will America start to LISTEN to her Allies, when she wants to do something OUTSIDE her jurisdiction? Because with friends there is mutual respect...sometimes the way some of you speak about the rest of the world...countries that have breeched international Law on your behalf, countries whose forces have also perished..it feels more like abuse then friendship. You dont tell your friends you love them...when honnestly you dont care about their views or how they feel.

The Good thing about Barack Obama is he has pledged to listen. He may not aggree with world opinion, and he may not follow it...but at least he will hear us out before he plunges headlong into something. That I can respect. I can respect a person who listens to me and dissagrees...but I pisses me off if someone just flat out ignores my views...then comes to me for help and support later.

Besides...if you read what I Put...I said I DONT think that any insitution outside of the U.S should try its own Prisoners of War...They ARENT European Prisoners...they are American Prisoners...ergo YOU should put them on Trial..and YOU should hand out the punishment...and you'll notice that I reccomended Death as a suitable and fitting punishment....not permanent detention.

Dave, you're going to find that very few American citizens recognize the UN's "authority." Anyone can say, "Hey, we're in charge now, you need to listen to us;" but if they don't display any kind of real leadership, then their authority is empty and meaningless. The UN has proven itself to be a society of endless debaters who never resolve anything and can best be described as a "pooling of ignorance." They have no real power.

America is a sovereign nation, we won our war of independence over 2 centuries ago and broke all allegiances and loyalties to Europe.

The simple fact is that the UN is powerless without the United States and they need us much more than we need them.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Excuse me...but without the rest of the world you will never win this war. Its a permanet ongoing thing anyway...like I pointed out, there will always be extremists and terrorists.


The Good thing about Barack Obama is he has pledged to listen. He may not aggree with world opinion, and he may not follow it...but at least he will hear us out before he plunges headlong into something. That I can respect. I can respect a person who listens to me and dissagrees...but I pisses me off if someone just flat out ignores my views...then comes to me for help and support later.

Dave, I'm going to apologize ahead of time to ya, so I'm sorry, but this blind statement really pisses me off, where you said that the US won't win against the terrorists...that is a really pessimistic attitude and shows that you are making blanket opinion statements without really knowing the facts. Not that I know all the facts, but I know people who do, and they give me the impression the small steps go a long way in this global effort to rid the world of terrorists.

Terrorism goes back decades, centuries and milennia, all it really means is unlawful acts of violence and war. There have been extremists and fundamentalists in almost every society. This is true, but the of the more than a billion Muslim worshipers in this world, only a couple percentage points are considered 'fundamentalist'. These small factions have lofty goals, believing they were sent by God (Allah) to cleanse the world of western civilization, the US being a dominant target.

I cannot tell you what it's like to experience terrorism in your city--there aren't really any words to describe the fear that the enemy uses against you. When the twin towers fell, the plane crashed in Pennsylvania, and the other plane hit the Pentagon, America was forever changed. More people died on September 11 (2998) than in the Pearl Harbor attacks (~2400) on December 7, 1941. If I remember correctly from history class, the US was trying to remain neutral in the Second World War--but when you mess with this country, America is not going to just sit back and take it, they are going to fight back. Well, I'm sorry, but Mr. Bin Laden and his bastard troop did a doozey when they launched the attacks on 9/11....at first, hearing of friends and family who were either killed, injured, or not able to get in contact with was unbearable....then after a couple days, the denial set in. A few days later, bargaining and then finally, acceptance, and a harsh realization that the US couldn't just sit back and let this happen.

That's when the gov't got to work and started the work in Afghanistan. I'm not going to comment on the 2003 invasion of Iraq b/c that is in it's closure stage now and everything is doing well. One of our own forum members did tremendous work over there, and aside from some factions of fundamentals, the future for Iraq looks much better than it did 6 years ago under the Hussein regime.

There is much work to be done in Afghanistan. It's going to take long hours of strategic counterintelligence strategy and outsmarting the Taliban and Al-Queda networks to get to the bottom of the situation. I truly believe that with the right work done, the US can defeat the Bin Laden network. Persistence pays off....if they didn't believe they could defeat them, they wouldn't be signing up the US military for 6 month and longer deployments. My buddy Dan Miller is slated to go over there this spring, and his orders don't even have a length on them yet.

I'm not at all straying from the seriousness of the situation, and I truly am grateful for the other nations that are helping the cause over there, including England's and our European allies. I just am extremely passionate about this because

1) I have a heart for Muslims in the middle eastern nations--and praying for the many who have to worship Jesus underground for fear they will be killed if discovered
2) In my first week of college in September 2001, my Pakistan: Islamic Frontier class was transformed into a huge discussion about the Bin Laden network and what needed to happen, and i made a few friends who were Muslims, and they explained to me that their religion was extremely peaceful, and that fundamentalists exist in every religious faction (just think of some Christian or Morman factions....)
3) this is the most important, but people very near and dear to me are overseas or have been. Yall know a couple from here on the forums, but also my cousin works as a US Marine in Embassies, my buddy Dan from above--a US Marine, and my dad, who served in the Beriut-Grenada insurgences of 1983-84, a Meditteranean peacekeeping mission in 1985-87, Desert Shield and Desert Storm in 1990 and 1991, and a few other floats here and there. Over all, he was overseas or away from our house for over 12 years of his 20 in the service, my other cousin, another US Marine who was called 'back' to the service after getting out after 5 years of active duty service, and finally my little brother, who is due to be commissioned into the army as an officer next year in 2010. He yearns for the time he can spend overseas and serve his country because he wants to and because it's the right thing to do.

I have a maximum respect and high regard for anyone who serves overseas. This stuff just hits home whenever people talk about it, for me personally anyway. I'll never have to go over seas in a war zone because the remarkable women and men who serve over there fight for my freedom every day--and i mean military as well as civilians and contractors.

Anyway, I'm done now, I just wrote a thesis like you do Dave! Sorry about that, and you are still a cool dude, even if Barack Obama didn't say that

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Dave, you're going to find that very few American citizens recognize the UN's "authority." Anyone can say, "Hey, we're in charge now, you need to listen to us;" but if they don't display any kind of real leadership, then their authority is empty and meaningless. The UN has proven itself to be a society of endless debaters who never resolve anything and can best be described as a "pooling of ignorance." They have no real power.

America is a sovereign nation, we won our war of independence over 2 centuries ago and broke all allegiances and loyalties to Europe.

The simple fact is that the UN is powerless without the United States and they need us much more than we need them.

You are ONLY soverign INSIDE yourself...

You are NOT soverign over ANY other Nation.

The United Nations is made up of MANY Nations Denise...why would we be powerless without you? China...Russia...are not exactly walk-overs...neither incase you hadnt realized are France, Germany, Britain....WHO do you think your allies are exactly?

So you DONT have Soverignty outside of your own governance...anymore then you own your next door neighbours house! You dont own the bloody street because you have your own soverignty!!

You are a House on the Street, next to other Houses...if only you had more direct boarders with other nations rather then the sea you would have learned VERY quickly. In Europe, we Need to work together, because over thousands of years disputes have been settled by might. You all live in a continent too far away from any other nations to realize that sometimes you dont have control OUTSIDE your nation. You have a placid and dignified Canada to the North, minute Island Nations in the gulf, and a third world Mexico to your south.

Do you know how many times England has been invaded in the past 2K????

[Neezar]

Originally Posted by NateR

Dave, you're going to find that very few American citizens recognize the UN's "authority." Anyone can say, "Hey, we're in charge now, you need to listen to us;" but if they don't display any kind of real leadership, then their authority is empty and meaningless. The UN has proven itself to be a society of endless debaters who never resolve anything and can best be described as a "pooling of ignorance." They have no real power.

America is a sovereign nation, we won our war of independence over 2 centuries ago and broke all allegiances and loyalties to Europe.

The simple fact is that the UN is powerless without the United States and they need us much more than we need them.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

You are ONLY soverign INSIDE yourself...

You are NOT soverign over ANY other Nation.

The United Nations is made up of MANY Nations Denise... why would we be powerless without you? China...Russia...are not exactly walk-overs...neither incase you hadnt realized are France, Germany, Britain....WHO do you think your allies are exactly?

So you DONT have Soverignty outside of your own governance...anymore then you own your next door neighbours house! You dont own the bloody street because you have your own soverignty!!

You are a House on the Street, next to other Houses...if only you had more direct boarders with other nations rather then the sea you would have learned VERY quickly. In Europe, we Need to work together, because over thousands of years disputes have been settled by might. You all live in a continent too far away from any other nations to realize that sometimes you dont have control OUTSIDE your nation. You have a placid and dignified Canada to the North, minute Island Nations in the gulf, and a third world Mexico to your south.

Do you know how many times England has been invaded in the past 2K????

Oops!

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by mikthehick

Dave, I'm going to apologize ahead of time to ya, so I'm sorry, but this blind statement really pisses me off, where you said that the US won't win against the terrorists...that is a really pessimistic attitude and shows that you are making blanket opinion statements without really knowing the facts. Not that I know all the facts, but I know people who do, and they give me the impression the small steps go a long way in this global effort to rid the world of terrorists.

Terrorism goes back decades, centuries and milennia, all it really means is unlawful acts of violence and war. There have been extremists and fundamentalists in almost every society. This is true, but the of the more than a billion Muslim worshipers in this world, only a couple percentage points are considered 'fundamentalist'. These small factions have lofty goals, believing they were sent by God (Allah) to cleanse the world of western civilization, the US being a dominant target.

I cannot tell you what it's like to experience terrorism in your city--there aren't really any words to describe the fear that the enemy uses against you. When the twin towers fell, the plane crashed in Pennsylvania, and the other plane hit the Pentagon, America was forever changed. More people died on September 11 (2998) than in the Pearl Harbor attacks (~2400) on December 7, 1941. If I remember correctly from history class, the US was trying to remain neutral in the Second World War--but when you mess with this country, America is not going to just sit back and take it, they are going to fight back. Well, I'm sorry, but Mr. Bin Laden and his bastard troop did a doozey when they launched the attacks on 9/11....at first, hearing of friends and family who were either killed, injured, or not able to get in contact with was unbearable....then after a couple days, the denial set in. A few days later, bargaining and then finally, acceptance, and a harsh realization that the US couldn't just sit back and let this happen.

That's when the gov't got to work and started the work in Afghanistan. I'm not going to comment on the 2003 invasion of Iraq b/c that is in it's closure stage now and everything is doing well. One of our own forum members did tremendous work over there, and aside from some factions of fundamentals, the future for Iraq looks much better than it did 6 years ago under the Hussein regime.

There is much work to be done in Afghanistan. It's going to take long hours of strategic counterintelligence strategy and outsmarting the Taliban and Al-Queda networks to get to the bottom of the situation. I truly believe that with the right work done, the US can defeat the Bin Laden network. Persistence pays off....if they didn't believe they could defeat them, they wouldn't be signing up the US military for 6 month and longer deployments. My buddy Dan Miller is slated to go over there this spring, and his orders don't even have a length on them yet.

I'm not at all straying from the seriousness of the situation, and I truly am grateful for the other nations that are helping the cause over there, including England's and our European allies. I just am extremely passionate about this because

1) I have a heart for Muslims in the middle eastern nations--and praying for the many who have to worship Jesus underground for fear they will be killed if discovered
2) In my first week of college in September 2001, my Pakistan: Islamic Frontier class was transformed into a huge discussion about the Bin Laden network and what needed to happen, and i made a few friends who were Muslims, and they explained to me that their religion was extremely peaceful, and that fundamentalists exist in every religious faction (just think of some Christian or Morman factions....)
3) this is the most important, but people very near and dear to me are overseas or have been. Yall know a couple from here on the forums, but also my cousin works as a US Marine in Embassies, my buddy Dan from above--a US Marine, and my dad, who served in the Beriut-Grenada insurgences of 1983-84, a Meditteranean peacekeeping mission in 1985-87, Desert Shield and Desert Storm in 1990 and 1991, and a few other floats here and there. Over all, he was overseas or away from our house for over 12 years of his 20 in the service, my other cousin, another US Marine who was called 'back' to the service after getting out after 5 years of active duty service, and finally my little brother, who is due to be commissioned into the army as an officer next year in 2010. He yearns for the time he can spend overseas and serve his country because he wants to and because it's the right thing to do.

I have a maximum respect and high regard for anyone who serves overseas. This stuff just hits home whenever people talk about it, for me personally anyway. I'll never have to go over seas in a war zone because the remarkable women and men who serve over there fight for my freedom every day--and i mean military as well as civilians and contractors.

Anyway, I'm done now, I just wrote a thesis like you do Dave! Sorry about that, and you are still a cool dude, even if Barack Obama didn't say that

Kim, this is a fallen world. Its full of sin...Acts of Terrorism will NEVER stop...Whilst people are unique, they will always dissagree, when they dissagree enough, they will always act. Now even if Iraq and Afghanistan are eventually finished...what about the Terrorists in every other nation of the world? and when you've irradicated terrorism in the whole world...it will grow back.

This is a never-ending war, because you arent fighting a country, or a people...your fighting an ideology that I believe is directly connected to sin...that of people who dissagree and are not afraid to force their side.

Kim...I HAVE experienced Terrorism in my city. Moreover I should have been killed by the Tavastock Bus Bomber. Let me explain. On the 7th July 2005, the Islamists targetted England...they bombed us because we supported you! They split up on the London underground, four of them...One detonated at Edgewear Road Tube Station, quite a major station, thankfully in the open air. One of them detonated in the middle of a tube between Russel Square and Kings Cross...perhaps the ultimate target for a bomb...the third detonated in Liverpool Street Station...Liverpool street was less the ten mins walk from Saint Paul's Cathedral.

Now, on a day off, suffering from depression I would rise very early and travel by Bus or Tube to Russel Square. I would go to The University of London Union in Bloomsbury...I would get there when the pool opened for a swim, and I would leave during the morning rush hour (I was up early because I couldnt sleep)

One of the Bombers momentarily had a crisis of confidence, and instead of going wherever he was supposed to go...probably victoria or waterloo...He boarded a bus and went through bloomsbury (the heart of the University quarter) He detonated his bomb VERY close to where I should have been. its quite possible I would even have caught that bus moments before the bomb went off. It was the right time, and it was going in the right direction.

At last moment I changed my day off to shift swap with someone at work. I was at the Cathedral when the Bomb went off. Now...a Black Christian woman was abord the bus, and when it went off she was splattered all over the walls of the courtyard. Her parents were interviewed and do you know what they said? They said they forgave the Bombers who violently murdered their child. That could...and should have been me...if I hadnt of shift swapped.

I appreciate the troops, and I have islamic friends aswell because I lived at the time of 9/11 in an Islamic Majority City called Bradford, when I was in University...but you HAVE to understand...even IF all the troops come home...their work on Terrorism is NEVER completed...there will always be some bastard who wants to hurt other people

you cant lock people up without trial and say when that kinda war is over, they will be tried! Because...those trials wouldnt start til you no longer needed a Military...do you EVER forsee a time when Someone like Boomer isnt needed to defend your country??

Your country will always be threatened, you will always need your Troops...the eradication of Terrorism will not finish until the coming of Christ...you CANT keep prisoners locked up that long without Trial

(incidently, the bombers tried again later in the month, the same MO, three trains and a bus...all the bombs apparently went off, but the cell seemed to be a set of copycat killers who didnt know how to properly construct the bombs...noone was killed..not even the would-be-bombers!)

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Neezar

Oops!

yes....we've been here before

I still love you Denise...sorry if I'm sometimes rude...

Originally Posted by Tyburn

You are ONLY soverign INSIDE yourself...

You are NOT soverign over ANY other Nation.

The United Nations is made up of MANY Nations Denise...why would we be powerless without you? China...Russia...are not exactly walk-overs...neither incase you hadnt realized are France, Germany, Britain....WHO do you think your allies are exactly?

So you DONT have Soverignty outside of your own governance...anymore then you own your next door neighbours house! You dont own the bloody street because you have your own soverignty!!

You are a House on the Street, next to other Houses...if only you had more direct boarders with other nations rather then the sea you would have learned VERY quickly. In Europe, we Need to work together, because over thousands of years disputes have been settled by might. You all live in a continent too far away from any other nations to realize that sometimes you dont have control OUTSIDE your nation. You have a placid and dignified Canada to the North, minute Island Nations in the gulf, and a third world Mexico to your south.

Do you know how many times England has been invaded in the past 2K????

haha france

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by matthughesfan21

haha france

Well they are good on the drawing board...just...not in the air