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  #21  
Old 02-20-2010, 10:52 PM
surveyorshawn
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I do believe we have the free will to walk away from God even after we are saved, and I believe that there is tons of scripture in the New Testament to back that up, however, I am not hung up on that belief or anything. If, when I get to Heaven, God tells me I am wrong and really didn't have to endure to the end to be saved (or I find out here on earth, lol), I am not going to be heart broken, and my belief system isn't going to be turned upside down or anything. Heck, all I will have done is live right and stayed true, which I plan on doing whether the doctrine of eternal security is true or not. I don't even argue it with people, because, if they are living for God anyway, what does it matter? It just causes hard feelings between folks most of the time. I don't have a problem talking about it on here with you, Nate, or some of you other guys, because we are all saved and secure, and I think (or at least hope) that we can share ideas and at the worst agree to disagree about it at the end of the day and roll on as brothers in Christ. Don't worry, I have no intention of "working" my way into heaven! Lol. I am sure we are on the same page that agreeing or not agreeing on that doctrine does not save us or damn us to hell. I will look up some of the passages that have convinced me and list them here, but you are probably familiar with them already Nate.

I can buy the thing about if some people fall away in the end, they were never saved to start with, as long as well all agree that someone who, regardless of what they say they have done for God in the past, how long they have been "saved", etc., but returns to a life of sin and stays that way the rest of their life most likely does not belong to Him. The rest of it is semantics to me, and God can sort that out. It is worth it to witness to a man like that, even if he thinks he got saved when he was 10 or whatever.
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  #22  
Old 02-20-2010, 11:08 PM
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Yep, Mark, this is one of the ones I had in mind:

Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God

II Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Matt. 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved (there are several scriptures that say this, I thought it would be a bit redundant to post them all)

There are a whole lot more scriptures that say the same things as what I have posted above, and many commonly read one that certainly suggest it. Reread the parable of the seed and the sower, for example. If the seed is the word, and it brings life, some of the life was overtaken by the cares of the world, etc. died. & am not making doctrine out of that or anything, and could certainly be way off, but it is worth rereading with that in mind just for the heck of it. I will look up some more, but alas, I have to psych myself up for UFC 110!
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  #23  
Old 02-20-2010, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post

Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."


We still have free will.



Nate you have a opinion just like everyone on here. Thats all it is.
You should quote the entire passage:

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful
,
for he cannot disown himself.

Some translations use "deny" instead of "disown" for verse 12, which gives a completely different connotation.

Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

When we become Christians, we become slaves to GOD. Thus, we willingly give up our free will for GOD's will. That's the example that Jesus set while He was on the earth:

John 8:28
So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

So, I would argue that we voluntarily give up a portion of our free will when we become Christians.
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  #24  
Old 02-20-2010, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."
You only quoted a part of this passage, you conveniently left off the part about GOD remaining faithful even when we are faithless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
This is a better argument for Eternal Security than losing your salvation.

However, this is out of context, since Hebrews was written to the 1st century Hebrews, not to Gentile Christians. Taking it out of that context and trying to apply it to modern day Christianity is just bad theology.

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Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
Hebrews 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God
This is talking about receiving knowledge of the truth and not following it through to accepting GOD's offer of salvation. Reading the Bible gives someone an intellectual knowledge of GOD, but it doesn't save them. That is a decision they have to make on their own.

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Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
II Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Again, this is talking about knowledge of GOD that does not lead to salvation, not losing salvation.

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Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
Matt. 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved (there are several scriptures that say this, I thought it would be a bit redundant to post them all)
This is completely out of context, because Jesus was not even talking about salvation here. Jesus is talking about enduring the end of days. The "saved" that Jesus is talking about here is a reference to being saved from the Anti-Christ by Jesus during His Second Coming.
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  #25  
Old 02-21-2010, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."
You only quoted a part of this passage, you conveniently left off the part about GOD remaining faithful even when we are faithless.
I didn't conveniently leave anything out. I wasn't addressing God's faithfulness, I was addressing the fact that He said He would disown us if we disown Him. Both are true at the same time; He is faithful when we aren't, and if we disown Him, He will disown us. Disowning us when we disown Him does not make Him unfaithful.
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Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
This is a better argument for Eternal Security than losing your salvation.
Not sure where the eternal security argument is here. It certainly does say that if you fall away, you cannot be renewed to repentance, though. No onc can be a partaker in the Holy Spirit unless they are saved, and that is the kind of person who is described here.

However, this is out of context, since Hebrews was written to the 1st century Hebrews, not to Gentile Christians. Taking it out of that context and trying to apply it to modern day Christianity is just bad theology.
If this can't be applied to Christians today, then why have it in the Bible to start with, why teach any of the book of Hebrews in church, Sunday school, or seminary at all, other than as a historical book? Heck, Galatians was not written to us. I am not from Galatia, or the middle east at all. I know I was being a bit facetious, but the Old Testament was written for and about the Hebrew people, and we use and apply it to us as well. Very simply put, the Bible is God's love letter and instruction manual to us. Hebrews was written to Hebrew CHRISTIANS. Remember the passages in the New Testament that say there are neither Greek nor Jew nor free nor slave in Christ? It is definitely very applicable to us, you and I just may interpret it differently, that's all, and I respect that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
Hebrews 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God
This is talking about receiving knowledge of the truth and not following it through to accepting GOD's offer of salvation. Reading the Bible gives someone an intellectual knowledge of GOD, but it doesn't save them. That is a decision they have to make on their own.
What you said here, Nate, does not make logical sense when compared to this verse, unless I misunderstood you, which is very possible. The verse says that if we keep sinning on purpose after receiving the knowledge then no sacrifice is left, and all that awaits us if judgment and hell (the raging fire). If I understood what you said correctly, then if you witness to me, I have received that knowledge, but if I keep on sinning, then, according to the verse, no sacrifice is left, and I will face judgeship and the raging fire. It is like a one shot chance, which is not true. I'm sure I'm missing something in what you said, though. Here is what the verse appears to say to me: You receive the knowledge of the truth. To receive it is different than to mentally acknowledge it, it means to actually take it, to accept it, as in getting saved (sure, I could be wrong). If you continue to sin willfully (as in a lifestyle of sin) after that, then there is no more sacrifice for sin left, since you already accepted that sacrifice by receiving it (vs 26), and now will face judgement and the raging fire that will consume the enemies of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by surveyorshawn View Post
II Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Again, this is talking about knowledge of GOD that does not lead to salvation, not losing salvation.
I do not believe that anything other than salvation will allow you to escape the pollutions of the world, mere head knowledge will not. I am confident scripture will back this up, as nothing cleanses us or frees us from sin other than the blood of Jesus. Sin is the pollution of the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by surveyorshawn
Matt. 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved (there are several scriptures that say this, I thought it would be a bit redundant to post them all)
This is completely out of context, because Jesus was not even talking about salvation here. Jesus is talking about enduring the end of days. The "saved" that Jesus is talking about here is a reference to being saved from the Anti-Christ by Jesus during His Second Coming.
Being saved is relative. Jesus said we will never die, but obviously we will die physically. I don't think it is out of context at all, and yes, I am aware it is talking about the end times, though not about being saved from the anti-christ, I don't think. In fact, the preceeding verse puts it in better perspective: "12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

I'm totally ok with having different opinions about things, different interpretations, etc., and even many trained Biblical scholars disagree. However, please don't accuse me of purposely leaving things out or taking things out of context. Maybe you don't think I did at all, and that's great! I don't have any agenda at all, and I might be wrong about everything I believe except Jesus and him crucified and risen. I'm almost 40, and I know more scripture than I ever did when I was younger but realize that I understand and comprehend far less than I ever imagined. Man, I respect everything you said, Nate, I just see it differently, but I can tell you have studied for a lot of years, and your views are not out of ignorance at all, they are just a different interpretation and opinion of the same verses. We may never agree on them, but I think, from reading your other posts, we agree on the basics of the faith and what it takes to be a Christian, so unless you think you have some scripture that is just going to blow my mind about the whole "once saved always saved" thing, I'm gonna leave this one for now, lol. I may come back to it tomorrow if you or somebody else posts something that's too irresistible not to comment on though, lolol!
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  #26  
Old 02-21-2010, 12:16 AM
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Off topic

NateR should start a thread in the christian section called "Can I loose my salvation."
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Old 02-21-2010, 12:21 AM
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Nate you have a opinion just like everyone on here. Thats all it is.
I agree. I would never claim to know everything there is to know about the Bible and I'm still not 100% on the eternal security thing.

I just think that all the verses posted so far as arguments against eternal security are:

1. poorly interpreted - in other words, assuming that the text is talking about salvation, when it's not. For instance, in the parable of the sower, the seed represents the Word of GOD, not salvation.

2. fragmented - quoting a portion of a passage or sentence and ignoring the rest.

3. taken out of context - ignoring the historical context of the passage: the who?, what?, when?, where?, and why? of the verse. For example, the book of Hebrews must be read in the context of 1st century Messianic Judaism. It was not written to Gentiles (non-Jews), so you can't interpret it the same as the writings of Paul, which were written primarily to Gentile churches.

4. overly reliant on English translations - the Bible was not written in English and English is definitely not an adequate language to carry all of the meaning that the Bible has in it. So, basing your theology off of a translation of the Bible is a very, very, very bad idea. You need to go back to the original languages to truly understand what GOD is teaching us. Does this mean that you will never be able to fully understand the entire message of the Bible without learning Hebrew and Greek? Yes. Picking up an English translation of the Bible and assuming that you will be able to learn everything there is to know about GOD from it is a very dangerous thing to do.

5. jumping to conclusions based on limited information - for instance, assuming that we can know what the full contents of the Book of Life are, when Scripture only tells us that it includes names of people. All people on the earth? We don't know. Every person who was ever born? We don't know. Is it just a list of names? We don't know. Does it include any other information besides names? We don't know. Does blotting someone's name out of the Book of Life erase their salvation or just end their life? We don't know.
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Old 02-21-2010, 12:30 AM
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Off topic

NateR should start a thread in the christian section called "Can I loose my salvation."
Yeah, where's a moderator when you need one?

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  #29  
Old 02-21-2010, 12:33 AM
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I'm totally ok with having different opinions about things, different interpretations, etc., and even many trained Biblical scholars disagree. However, please don't accuse me of purposely leaving things out or taking things out of context. Maybe you don't think I did at all, and that's great! I don't have any agenda at all, and I might be wrong about everything I believe except Jesus and him crucified and risen. I'm almost 40, and I know more scripture than I ever did when I was younger but realize that I understand and comprehend far less than I ever imagined. Man, I respect everything you said, Nate, I just see it differently, but I can tell you have studied for a lot of years, and your views are not out of ignorance at all, they are just a different interpretation and opinion of the same verses. We may never agree on them, but I think, from reading your other posts, we agree on the basics of the faith and what it takes to be a Christian, so unless you think you have some scripture that is just going to blow my mind about the whole "once saved always saved" thing, I'm gonna leave this one for now, lol. I may come back to it tomorrow if you or somebody else posts something that's too irresistible not to comment on though, lolol!
Agree to disagree sounds good to me.

I know that Mark has yet to see a truly convincing argument that "once saved always saved" is true, and I have yet to see a truly convincing argument that it's not.

Either way, it's not an essential to the faith and we'll all know for sure when we meet up in Heaven.
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Old 02-21-2010, 12:45 AM
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Agree to disagree sounds good to me.

I know that Mark has yet to see a truly convincing argument that "once saved always saved" is true, and I have yet to see a truly convincing argument that it's not.

Either way, it's not an essential to the faith and we'll all know for sure when we meet up in Heaven.
Yep! I've seen lots of good folks fall out with each other over lesser stuff. I've been going back & forth between here & posting jokes on facebook, but nobody's laughing or responding. You'd think they had better things to do than sit around posting on the internet or something! Matt should use his influence to have the UFC start the ppv at 7 for us country folks, lol, this waiting around is dragging by!
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