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Old 02-09-2010, 09:04 PM
bradwright
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Default could somebody explain this to me ?

just wondering what to make of this.

The first version of creation (the priestly version with its echoes of the religious Sabbath tradition) is found in chapter one of Genesis and it is followed by the populist myth in chapter two. The order of creation in Chapter chapter 1 is:

On the first day the sky, earth, and light is created.
On the second day water is created with both an ocean on earth and a second ‘ocean' in the sky.
On the third day the plants are created.
On the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars are created to assist in navigation and for the purposes of establishing a calendar.
On the fifth day the creatures of the oceans, and the birds are created.
On the sixth day the animals and ‘creeping things' are created. With this done human beings were created (male and female they were created). No distinction is made between the creation of man and woman. They are apparently created at the same time. This is echoed in another fragment of this tradition woven in at the beginning of chapter five, which mimics the language used in the first chapter (they were 'created in God's image; male and female God created them').

In this version it is interesting to note that days, with morning and evenings are created before the sun exists. As well there are traces of a polytheistic tradition in that Elohim (gods) plural is a term used. Elohim is usually translated 'God' in the bible, although a literal translation would be 'gods' (plural), but for theological reasons there are only a few times in the Bible when Elohim is translated in the plural (only when the term was used in a context which did not refer to God, the term having different meanings depending on the context in which it was used.)

In the second tradition found in Genesis chapter two, God is referred to as Yahweh, usually translated 'YAHWEH'. This is similar to the division found between the two stories of Noah's Ark and the flood, where in each separate version, there are not only differences in detail, but also different names of God used, which corresponds neatly to the differences in detail, and thus both the story of creation and the story of Noah's Ark and the flood, are excellent examples of using the technique of source criticism and redaction criticism in the Bible. In the Yahweh version of creation, creation is not described as a sequence of days. The order of creation is self evidently different. First Yahweh creates the earth and the heavens. Then Yahweh creates Adam who lives on a barren earth, ‘for Yahweh had not yet sent any rain.' Up to this time, we are told, moisture used to seep up from under the ground to water the earth. We are also specifically told that Yahweh had not yet created any plants for there was not yet anyone to till the ground. To rectify this Yahweh created Adam, and then went about the task of creating the first plants. After deciding that the man was lonely, Yahweh created all the animals one by one, and brought them to Adam to be named, but none of these animals were found to be suitable for mating with Adam. Therefore Yahweh put Adam to sleep, performed what would appear to be surgery, removed a rib, and created Eve.

The conflicts between this version of events and the former are obvious. Humans were created last in the version in Genesis chapter one, and humans were created immediately after a barren earth was formed in Genesis chapter two. They exist before the plants, animals and rain exist, all of which are described as preceding them in Genesis chapter one.

Contrasting the following passages should make the matter abundantly clear.

"And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind ... And the evening and the morning were the third day ... Let the waters teem with life and let birds fly above the earth ... it was the fifth day ... And God said, Let us make man in our image ... And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Genesis Chapter 1 verse 12)

So in the priestly tradition the order was plants (third day), birds (fifth day), and the on the sixth day the animals (first) followed by humanity. In the alternate tradition you will notice that plants, rain, and birds are said to follow after the creation of Adam.

"There was neither plant nor shrub growing on the earth, for YAHWEH God had not sent any rain, and there was not a man to till the ground. . . And YAHWEH God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And YAHWEH God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made YAHWEH God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food." (Genesis Chapter 2 verse 5)

It follows that if birds and plants were created before Adam, then Adam could not have existed before birds and plants and rain, but it just this impossible to harmonize account of events that appears in the second tradition. In mythology you can have such inconsistencies, but they have no place in history or science.

"And YAHWEH God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground YAHWEH God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." (Genesis Chapter 2 verse 18)
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradwright View Post
just wondering what to make of this.

The first version of creation (the priestly version with its echoes of the religious Sabbath tradition) is found in chapter one of Genesis and it is followed by the populist myth in chapter two. The order of creation in Chapter chapter 1 is:

On the first day the sky, earth, and light is created.
On the second day water is created with both an ocean on earth and a second ‘ocean' in the sky.
On the third day the plants are created.
On the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars are created to assist in navigation and for the purposes of establishing a calendar.
On the fifth day the creatures of the oceans, and the birds are created.
On the sixth day the animals and ‘creeping things' are created. With this done human beings were created (male and female they were created). No distinction is made between the creation of man and woman. They are apparently created at the same time. This is echoed in another fragment of this tradition woven in at the beginning of chapter five, which mimics the language used in the first chapter (they were 'created in God's image; male and female God created them').

In this version it is interesting to note that days, with morning and evenings are created before the sun exists. As well there are traces of a polytheistic tradition in that Elohim (gods) plural is a term used. Elohim is usually translated 'God' in the bible, although a literal translation would be 'gods' (plural), but for theological reasons there are only a few times in the Bible when Elohim is translated in the plural (only when the term was used in a context which did not refer to God, the term having different meanings depending on the context in which it was used.)

In the second tradition found in Genesis chapter two, God is referred to as Yahweh, usually translated 'YAHWEH'. This is similar to the division found between the two stories of Noah's Ark and the flood, where in each separate version, there are not only differences in detail, but also different names of God used, which corresponds neatly to the differences in detail, and thus both the story of creation and the story of Noah's Ark and the flood, are excellent examples of using the technique of source criticism and redaction criticism in the Bible. In the Yahweh version of creation, creation is not described as a sequence of days. The order of creation is self evidently different. First Yahweh creates the earth and the heavens. Then Yahweh creates Adam who lives on a barren earth, ‘for Yahweh had not yet sent any rain.' Up to this time, we are told, moisture used to seep up from under the ground to water the earth. We are also specifically told that Yahweh had not yet created any plants for there was not yet anyone to till the ground. To rectify this Yahweh created Adam, and then went about the task of creating the first plants. After deciding that the man was lonely, Yahweh created all the animals one by one, and brought them to Adam to be named, but none of these animals were found to be suitable for mating with Adam. Therefore Yahweh put Adam to sleep, performed what would appear to be surgery, removed a rib, and created Eve.

The conflicts between this version of events and the former are obvious. Humans were created last in the version in Genesis chapter one, and humans were created immediately after a barren earth was formed in Genesis chapter two. They exist before the plants, animals and rain exist, all of which are described as preceding them in Genesis chapter one.

Contrasting the following passages should make the matter abundantly clear.

"And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind ... And the evening and the morning were the third day ... Let the waters teem with life and let birds fly above the earth ... it was the fifth day ... And God said, Let us make man in our image ... And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Genesis Chapter 1 verse 12)

So in the priestly tradition the order was plants (third day), birds (fifth day), and the on the sixth day the animals (first) followed by humanity. In the alternate tradition you will notice that plants, rain, and birds are said to follow after the creation of Adam.

"There was neither plant nor shrub growing on the earth, for YAHWEH God had not sent any rain, and there was not a man to till the ground. . . And YAHWEH God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And YAHWEH God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made YAHWEH God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food." (Genesis Chapter 2 verse 5)

It follows that if birds and plants were created before Adam, then Adam could not have existed before birds and plants and rain, but it just this impossible to harmonize account of events that appears in the second tradition. In mythology you can have such inconsistencies, but they have no place in history or science.

"And YAHWEH God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground YAHWEH God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." (Genesis Chapter 2 verse 18)
That would be a superficial and incorrect assessment of Genesis 1 and 2.

There are two accounts because they are told from different perspectives.

Genesis 1 is GOD's point of view and everything is told from a grand, universal scale.

As Dr. Gerald Schroeder explains it, Genesis 1:5b is often mistranslated as "So there was evening, and there was morning, the first day." However the proper translation should be "day one" not "the first day." So this gives us the clue that Genesis 1 is written on a completely different time scale from the rest of the Bible. These 31 verses are written from the beginning of creation looking forward into the future, not from the end of creation looking back into the past. Genesis chapter 1 is completely unique from the rest of the Bible in that sense.

Think of Genesis 1 as the notes that GOD took while in the process of creating the universe. It's not written after the fact, it's written during.

Genesis 2 retells the creation account from a more 'ground level' point of view with a focus on humankind. It's referring to events that happened in the past from the perspective of the present.

There is no contradiction between the two accounts, because Genesis 2:8-14 refers to the creation of the Garden of Eden, not the planet earth. That's just lazy and sloppy theology to assume that Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other based on those verses.

Also, many people understand that Elohim is a plural form of the word "god." However, words like Elohim and Adonai were written into the Bible in place of GOD's proper name to prevent the taking of GOD's Name in vain. So Elohim is there as a placeholder for GOD's proper name.

Usually when you see "God" in the Bible, it's the Hebrew word "Elohim." If you read "LORD" (all caps in most translations), then it's the word "Adonai."

The Jews always understood that they worshipped one GOD:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our GOD, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:35 PM
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Actually...there is a third account in Genesis of Creation.

That in itself has been used by a lot of people to say that Creationalism is actually a false reading of Genesis, and that its not to be taken as litterally, in any of the three ways.

I cant remember the third account...I suspect Chapter three but anyway.

I think you actually have two different things going on...Firstly, THREE Accounts...Three is a symbolic number

Secondly...I believe that you are viewing the same thing, but from a different perspective. GODs perspective is outlined first. Man is created last. Mans perspective is outlined second...he is created last, but becomes aware of himself first, and then the things around him.

The third account...I cant remember...I spoke to a priest about this last week

The importance is not what happened, nor when, nor how, nor in what order...the importance is WHY it happened, and WHO made it happen. Those dont change in any of the accounts...infact that in itself is interesting, no matter what perspective you look at it through, GOD remains unchanging in each, constant in each, creating in each.

Really...True brilliance is held in scripture...you could analyse it forever...and thats just in ENGLISH
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:36 PM
CAVEMAN
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I could copy and paste but it would probably be a little much. Here is a link!

http://www.creationists.org/genesis-...s-1-and-2.html
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR View Post
There are two accounts because they are told from different perspectives.
and here was I believeing that that was an original thought of mine
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:37 PM
bradwright
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thanks....after reading those two chapters again i now see what you guys are saying.
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Old 02-10-2010, 05:11 AM
Chris F
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It is simply different POV. It was very common in Jewish story and oral tradition.
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