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Old 01-16-2010, 03:34 PM
cheachea
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Default What version of the Bible do you prefer ?

I like the New King James Version. I got to say though, I just plain don't trust the NIV bible.
Now I'm not a KJV only guy, but alot of these other versions take away some of the proof texts for the diety of Jesus Christ and it really bugs me. My biggest problem with the NIV is this :

Isaiah 14 (New International Version) 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

This is the same verse from KJV : 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



We all know that Jesus is the Morning Star from Revelation Chp 22 verse 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


So there you have it, the NIV calls Lucifer(the devil/satan) the Morning Star. That is just plain evil.
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:53 PM
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I dont' know that I find it "evil" to use the term.. but I wondered the same thing in the past...

Here is what I found that makes sense to me. But also brings to question the various translations of the Bible. Which is something I continually ponder from time to time.. And also makes me feel more confident in my personal belifes.

Quote:
Pentecostal Bible College - bright morning star
Expert: Pastor David Vivas - 8/31/2006

Question
in isaiah 14:12 lucifer is refered to in hebrew as the morning star. in revelation Christ is refered to in the greek as bright morning star. my faith tells me that they are not the same, but can u explain the difference to me so that I can witness to non believers. may God richly bless you in all your needs.......

Answer
Indeed, Jesus Christ is the Bright & Morning Star.

I understand that the name "Lucifer" was added into the Bible and not in the original Hebrews.

Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language?

A scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati answered the question about Lucifer and the origin of this name. What Hebrew name was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The scholar replies, "In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name 'Lucifer'."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

For more information on this subject, order the book "Noah's Flood, Joshua's Long Day & Lucifer's Fall - What Really Happened?" by Ralph Woodrow.

http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/noah.html

I trust this helps...
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Old 01-16-2010, 04:35 PM
cheachea
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Ok, lets read more of Isaiah Chp 14

The Fall of Lucifer
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[b] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Jesus siad he saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven (Luke Chp.10:18)
We all know who Isaiah is really talking about .
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritwalker View Post
I dont' know that I find it "evil" to use the term.. but I wondered the same thing in the past...

Here is what I found that makes sense to me. But also brings to question the various translations of the Bible. Which is something I continually ponder from time to time.. And also makes me feel more confident in my personal belifes.
I hope you are not trying to imply that this is "proof" that Satan doesn't really exist. Most Bible scholars know that the name Lucifer is a transliteration, not a true translation. Other transliterated names in the Bible include:

Jesus - this is a transliteration of the Latin word Iesus, which is a transliteration of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), which is a translation of the Hebrew name Yeshua (modern day Joshua), meaning "GOD saves" or "salvation."

Christ - is a tranliteration of the Greek Χριστός (Christós) which is a translation of the Hebrew word Mashiach, meaning "anointed" (in the Old Testament, mashiach is translated as "king" or, with the definitive article Ha - as in HaMashiach - it's transliterated as "the Messiah").

So, a more correct literary rendering of Jesus Christ's name should be either "Yeshua HaMashiach" or "Joshua, The Messiah". However, if we were to translate it literally, Jesus' name would be "GOD saves the anointed."

Church - is a transliteration of the Old English cirice, which comes from the Germanic kirika, which comes from the Greek word κυριακή kuriakē, meaning "of the Lord." This is probably a shortened version of the Greek ἐκκλησία κυριακή ekklēsia kuriakē ("congregation of the Lord"), since the original Greek word, that is translated as "church" is ekklesia, meaning assembly or congregation. The same word used to describe the nation of Israel in the Old Testament.

The word Church is also possibly a shortening of the Greek κυριακὴ οἰκία kuriakē oikia ("house of the Lord"). This would make sense because of the fact that, in Hebrew, the word for synagogue/temple and the word for house/home are based off the same root word. So the understanding would be that a Church is where GOD lives.

Unfortunately, the inconsistent translation of "congregation/assembly" in English Bibles creates an invisible, linguistic wall of separation between Christians and Jews. Something that was NEVER intended to exist at all.

Jehovah - This is a hybrid version of GOD's Name with no historical foundation prior to English language translations. GOD's Name is never spoken in the Bible and is usually only written as Elohim (GOD) or Adonai (LORD). However, His true Name is not recorded (and possibly has never been written down). We only know His Name by His initials Y.H.W.H, or J.H.V.H. in Latin. If take the Latin version and combine it with the vowel sounds for Adonai, then you get Jehovah.

So, the transliteration of the name "Lucifer" does not disprove Satan's existence.

Anyhoo, I mostly read a New King James translation. Not because I believe it to be the most accurate translation, but just because I'm used to it. I compare it frequently with other Christian and Jewish translations of the Bible because no translation is perfect.

So, this begs the question; Is it possible to learn everything there is to know about GOD's Word without learning Hebrew and spending your entire life studying the Bible?

The answer would be an emphatic "NO." By limiting ourselves to English translations, we are only capable of understanding maybe 25% of GOD's Word, at the most.

Another question would be, is the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, etc. translation of the Bible divinely inspired? That would be a firm "NO" as well. You can not apply the term "divinely inspired" to any English translation of the Bible. The same would apply to Latin translations of the Bible and Greek translations of the Old Testament. In order to read the true divinely inspired Word of GOD, then you need to read the original Hebrew and Aramaic (for the Old Testament) and the original Greek (for the New Testament).

Of course, not everyone can learn Hebrew or devote the time necessary to truly study the Bible. So, recognition of our own ignorance is the first step in any Bible study, as is the understanding that we will NEVER be able to fully comprehend GOD's Word without His help. This is why humility is the key to knowledge and you need to start every Bible reading/study with prayer.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:54 PM
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In one of these threads I posted some side by side comparisons so that might be a good read if you could find it.

I prefer the NASB because it is the most accurately close to the original Greek and Hebrew. Its downfall is that it used the Alexandrian text and has some issues. However these issues are easily resolved in the footnotes of every good bible.

The KJV used the best Greek text but it took to many liberties with the Greek and often missed translated some key verses. These to will be resolved by any good footnote.

Avoid paraphrases like The Message and Amplfied. Neither are correct in their dealing with the Greek and Hebrew and are man's peronal prefrences
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Old 01-17-2010, 01:04 AM
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definately would say that you need to be careful with the KJV, there are a ton of things in it that have liberties taken, the NKJV is supposedly better. But Nate will tell you that no one english translation is gonna have it all right, since the orginal writings have a bunch of numerical meanings as well as the vinguistic meaning.

I am using the ESV these days alongside cross referencing using biblegateway.com ( which has a lot of versions for comparison) I like the ESV because it is fundermentally translated by Christian people unlike the KJV (I believe that the ESV also has a number of messianic jews translate it also.)
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR View Post
I hope you are not trying to imply that this is "proof" that Satan doesn't really exist. Most Bible scholars know that the name Lucifer is a transliteration, not a true translation. Other transliterated names in the Bible include:
Where did you get that? I wouldn't have even implied that "****ian" or any other names referring to Satan... means he didn't/doesn't exist

Quote:
So, this begs the question; Is it possible to learn everything there is to know about GOD's Word without learning Hebrew and spending your entire life studying the Bible?
For the first time in over 20 years!!!! Someone asks the same question that I have pondered for a large portion of my adult life.

And I thought I was just splitting hairs.. or at least had come to believe that with all the push back I get when I bring up subjects like that.

I think it would be very cool to have a serious discussion with you on a wide variety of topics Nate...

Quote:
The answer would be an emphatic "NO." By limiting ourselves to English translations, we are only capable of understanding maybe 25% of GOD's Word, at the most.
Agreed.

Quote:
Another question would be, is the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, etc. translation of the Bible divinely inspired? That would be a firm "NO" as well. You can not apply the term "divinely inspired" to any English translation of the Bible. The same would apply to Latin translations of the Bible and Greek translations of the Old Testament. In order to read the true divinely inspired Word of GOD, then you need to read the original Hebrew and Aramaic (for the Old Testament) and the original Greek (for the New Testament).

Of course, not everyone can learn Hebrew or devote the time necessary to truly study the Bible. So, recognition of our own ignorance is the first step in any Bible study, as is the understanding that we will NEVER be able to fully comprehend GOD's Word without His help. This is why humility is the key to knowledge and you need to start every Bible reading/study with prayer.

See I would like to be able to view books omitted from the bible...

I wonder what all of the commandments actually were... things of that nature..

I wonder what God thinks of our current translations.. of the translations of the translations... translations on top of translations.... just one of those things I work on from time to time.
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:49 PM
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For New Testament study I always keep a copy of A Precise Parallel New Testament handy, Not only does it permit you to compare English translations but it includes the original Greek so for those who know Greek it would be an invaluable aid.

I don't know Greek. I do know Latin. That may be a level of difficulty less than Greek, and certainly less than Hebrew or Aramaic, but it still isn't easy. So I can sympathize with those who struggle with translation work.

Here's a real problem for English translations as I see it: English is organic; it is still evolving and being extended as a language. The original scriptural texts are not. What we today understand about a given English paragraph will be slightly different in 50 years and perhaps very different in 100 years. So to communicate the meaning of scripture it will be necessary to periodically produce new English translations that communicate inEnglish as it is understood at the time.

As English is modified as a result of globalization, this problem will get worse.

So for now I don't rely on just one translation. When I read the Word I ask for His guidance, and I talk to other believers.

I sure have enjoyed being able to read Cesar in his own language; makes me wish I could learn Greek.
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cheachea View Post
I like the New King James Version. I got to say though, I just plain don't trust the NIV bible.
Now I'm not a KJV only guy, but alot of these other versions take away some of the proof texts for the diety of Jesus Christ and it really bugs me. My biggest problem with the NIV is this :

Isaiah 14 (New International Version) 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

This is the same verse from KJV : 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



We all know that Jesus is the Morning Star from Revelation Chp 22 verse 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


So there you have it, the NIV calls Lucifer(the devil/satan) the Morning Star. That is just plain evil.

Well I have heard Lucifer refered to a a Bright Star before. You have to remember who he was before the Fall. He was like Saint Michael is now, the Highest form of Created Order, the best and most beautiful of GOD creation.

Never forget that he is also infered to a false LIGHT...he looks, sounds, even acts like Light, that is precisely how he manages to lie and misguide people who are not paying due cause and attention.

I have heard him refered to as precious Jewels also...in one passage, I dont remember where, GOD begins by giving a put down I think to the King of Tyre...but then it becomes clear he is talking about how far Lucifer has fallen...I wish I could remember the bible verse...its obscure...but its in their.
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Old 01-17-2010, 03:10 PM
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In the movie Constatine.. he was referred to as "The Little Horn".....

I found that so interesting I had to look around to see if it was real....


http://www.markbeast.com/satan/names-of-satan.htm

Names of Satan

The Bible calls Satan by many different names. Each name has a slightly different meaning. The many other names for Satan give a fuller picture of who Satan is and what he does. There are more names for Satan in the Bible than for anyone else except Jesus Christ.
Abaddon

Hebrew name for Satan meaning “Destruction”. “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Accuser

“Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ‘Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.’” Revelation 12:10
Adversary

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 1 Peter 5:8
Angel of light

“And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14
Angel of the bottomless pit

“And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Anointed covering cherub

"You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." Ezekiel 28:14
Antichrist

“And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” 1 John 4:3
Apollyon

Greek name for Satan meaning “Destroyer”. “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Beast

“9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, ‘If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.’” Revelation 14:9,10 Who is the beast?
Beelzebub

“Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, ‘This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.’” Matthew 12:24
Belial

“And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?” 2 Corinthians 6:15
Deceiver

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9
Devil

“He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8
Dragon

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9
Enemy

“The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.” Matthew 13:39
Evil one

“I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.” John 17:15
Father of lies

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” John 8:44
God of this age

“Whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.” 2 Corinthians 4:4
King of Babylon

“That you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: ‘How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased!’” Isaiah 14:4
King of the bottomless pit

“And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
King of Tyre

"Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.”’” Ezekiel 28:12
Lawless one

“8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
Leviathan

“In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.” Isaiah 27:1
Liar

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” John 8:44
Little horn

“ 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.” Daniel 8:9-11
Lucifer

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14
Man of sin

“3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4
Murderer

“44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” John 8:44
Power of darkness

“13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.” Colossians 1:13, 14
Prince of the power of the air

“1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:1,2
Roaring lion

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 1 Peter 5:8
Rulers of the darkness

“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Ephesians 6:12
Ruler of demons

“But some of them said, ‘He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.’” Luke 11:15
Ruler of this world

“31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” John 12:31,32
Satan

“And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him.” Mark 1:13
Serpent of old

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9
Son of perdition

“3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4
Star

“Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.” Revelation 9:1
Tempter

“Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, ‘If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.’” Matthew 4:3
Thief

“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” John 10:10
Wicked one

“Above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.” Ephesians 6:16
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