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  #21  
Old 01-03-2010, 05:57 AM
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NateR NateR is offline
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I always thought "once saved always saved". But now I am starting the think different.
Does it make cense to you that Hitler is in Heaven if he was saved at a early age?

Belief is a function of the will. No one can force a person to believe. He or she must choose to believe. Can also choose to stop believing?
Hitler's actions later in life would be good evidence that he was never a believer. Everything from his hatred of the Jews to the dabbling in the occult. If he had been saved early in life, then GOD would never have allowed him to backslide that far, He would have taken Hitler's life if necessary.

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I dont know where Solomon is do you?
I do know when One of the 12 apostles is. Where is Judas at? Was he not one of the 12 apostles?
Obviously Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him before He even chose him. So, Judas is an example of someone who was never a true believer to begin with.

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Explain this one Nate
John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned."
You have to keep this passage in the context of who Jesus was talking to. Here he was talking to Israelites, those who believed that they would inherit the kingdom of GOD by simply be born as Jews. So, again, this is referring to those who were never true believers to begin with.

Remember when we were talking about the parable of the sower? According to that passage, two out of every three professing Christians are false believers. And that is going to continue to be a problem in the Church until Christ returns.
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  #22  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:06 AM
Maglorius
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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
I always thought "once saved always saved". But now I am starting the think different.
Does it make cense to you that Hitler is in Heaven if he was saved at a early age?

Belief is a function of the will. No one can force a person to believe. He or she must choose to believe. Can also choose to stop believing?
No it doesn't and I don't believe he is in heaven. If he were truly saved at an early age would he have committed all those atrocities. I don't think so.

Jonah 2:9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you;what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the LORD!"

The gift of salvation is not ours to take or to give back. Even when a person chooses to believe, that ability to believe comes not from within ourselves but from the holy spirit enabling us to choose/accept Jesus. You can't lose something you never had.

I find it very hard to fathom someone that was saved ie new heart, new mind and than later in life decide to throw it away. If it is true that a person can lose Gods Salvation than we are also saying that Gods grace is sufficient for some and insufficient for others. In that his grace is enough to carry some to the end and not enough to carry others.
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  #23  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:07 AM
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Hitler
If he had been saved early in life, then GOD would never have allowed him to backslide that far, He would have taken Hitler's life if necessary.

How do you know that? You dont. Is this Dave or Nate that im talking to?


Obviously Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him before He even chose him. So, Judas is an example of someone who was never a true believer to begin with.

How do you know that? Give me some Bible Nate not just rambling.


You have to keep this passage in the context of who Jesus was talking to. Here he was talking to Israelites, those who believed that they would inherit the kingdom of GOD by simply be born as Jews. So, again, this is referring to those who were never true believers to begin with.

ok

Remember when we were talking about the parable of the sower? According to that passage, two out of every three professing Christians are false believers. And that is going to continue to be a problem in the Church until Christ returns.

Thats not what im talkn about.
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  #24  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:22 AM
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How do you know that? You dont. Is this Dave or Nate that im talking to?
Matthew 7: 18-20:
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

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How do you know that? Give me some Bible Nate not just rambling.
Jesus predicted Judas' betrayal in Matthew 26:21-25. We can only assume that He had to have known about the coming betrayal long before that; since He was GOD and it was a part of the plan all along.

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Thats not what im talkn about.
Well, it is related, because you have to ask yourself if a certain person lost their salvation or if they were just never truly saved to begin with.
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  #25  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:28 AM
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Matthew 7: 18-20:
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
2 PETER 2 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
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  #26  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:37 AM
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2 PETER 2 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
That passage is referring to the deception of false teachers and that entire chapter is about false doctrines. A false teacher would be someone who has an intellectual understanding of the Gospel, but hasn't taken it into his heart, thus they are ripe for corruption, perversion and heresy.

So, again, a false believer from the start and not someone who was saved and lost their salvation.
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  #27  
Old 01-03-2010, 07:31 AM
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Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven


Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved


Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away


Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing. 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
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  #28  
Old 01-03-2010, 12:13 PM
adamt adamt is offline
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So you believe in a salvation based on works?


And if you don't do the right works you are no longer saved?

And theoretically someone could get saved and unsaved millions of times while they are living, Right?

Are you thinking of going off the deep end into sin? If not what does it matter? If you theroetically could lose your salvation, it would only be by denying Christ, and if you don't want to do that then no need to worry about it and it is nothing but a tool the devil is using to divide us, and prevent us from doing something more worthwhile.



And what happens at salvation? We are regenerated and adopted and justified and forgiven, right?

So then at this "unsalvation" or desalvation", does all that reverse? Does God "indian give" his forgiveness, and put us back up for adoption, like some cosmic custody battle?
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  #29  
Old 01-03-2010, 01:21 PM
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So there might be people that think they are saved, but when Jesus comes will find out that they aren't. Is that what you are saying, Dave.
YES exactly Bonnie.

The issue is not really can we looose our salvation, the issue is, are we sure we are saved in the first place....because we might think we are, and we might not be...but that doesnt mean Salvation can be lost...it means we never had nowt to looose in the first place
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  #30  
Old 01-03-2010, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
I always thought "once saved always saved". But now I am starting the think different.
Does it make cense to you that Hitler is in Heaven if he was saved at a early age?

Belief is a function of the will. No one can force a person to believe. He or she must choose to believe. Can also choose to stop believing?
What about the Tyrant who has a death bed conversion?

its a case of black and white, Mark...noone, niether Adolf, Nor You, Nor I is good enough for Heaven...we all deserve the same fate no matter what we do, because we are incapable of being perfect.

I dont think Hitler was ever saved in the first place, if you read some of the book he wrote in his young age...like everything, he just used religion as an excuse to gain a bit of support whilst manipulating his way to absolute power...in a similar way he did exactly the same to the Communists who supported him.

He turned on both of them...before his becoming Chancellor, the Roman Church had to smuggle in documents to be read in church from Pius 11th who was one of the people who saw through Adolfs disguise reasonably early on....and as for the Communists that provided the SA...well once he came to power, they were a threat that he quickly removed.

He was no more a socialist then he was a Roman Catholic (besides...I thought you didnt even consider Roman Catholics Christian...in which case what difference to you does it make if Adolf was Roman Catholic...as a heretical movement that apparently worships Mary, surely you wouldnt consider him a Christian anyway...which goes back to my point about thinking you are a Christian when you are not, which you havent addressed)
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