Sports Illustrated -- 2000s: Top 10 MMA Fighters

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Bollox. In his Prime BJ Penn could dominate at both Welterweight and Lightweight. He cant really venture out of 155lbs now.

When exactly was that Dave? Back when he didn't take his training serious? When he lost to Hughes? When he lost to GSP? When he lost to Pulver?

Are you saying his "prime" has already happened and during that time he dominated at both LW & WW?

Or that IF he ever reached his prime?

I'm confused.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Chuck

When exactly was that Dave? Back when he didn't take his training serious? When he lost to Hughes? When he lost to GSP? When he lost to Pulver?

Are you saying his "prime" has already happened and during that time he dominated at both LW & WW?

Or that IF he ever reached his prime?

I'm confused.

He's over the half way point Chuck. BJ Penn used to be able to win dramatically based on skill alone. In that age few people beat him. By the time he returned to the UFC his hold on the Welterweight Division would have to be backed up with good solid hard work, and even that wasnt good enough, He could not beat GSP, He could not beat Hughes...He was already third fiddle in a two horse race between two Welterweight who had eclipsed him circa 2005. We are now 5 years on from that. With work and skill he can still dominate in the LW BUT who are the big players at LW? The giants that were been pruned have largely been cut...and noone is feeding the gatekeepers to him. Hermes Franca, Nil since challenging Sean Sherk. Spencer Fisher, Nil, Drew McFedries, Nil, Joe Lauzon, out, Roger Huerta, Out, Jens Pulver inabsentia, Urijah Faber, wont play ball, Kid Yamaoto, wont play ball, Gomi, wont play ball, Tyson Griffin, gatekeeper, Frankie Edgar Gatekeeper, Sean Sherk, acting dumb, Kenny Florian, blew it, Joe Stevenson, slight desperate, Diego Snachez, very desperate, Caol Uno, not what he used to be, Gray Maynard, shouldnt have been given the decision over Huerta...am I forgetting anybody?

The action is not even at Lightweight anymore, its smaller, its at Featherweight and Bantamweight...Brian Bowles, Urijah Faber, MTB, Jens Pulver, Josh Grispi, Jeff Curran...even, dare I say it, Cub Swanson

We forget that Jay Penn does not really belong to the generation of fighters that he's constantly placed with. He isnt Anderson Silva, he isnt Georges Saint Pierre, he isnt Matt Hughes...he's actually a late addition to the generation before him...He's the end of the generation that spawned Patrick Miletich. You really going to tell me that he's not yet reached his prime...watch him, he is making his last stand now...when he losses this LW Championship...it will be to him, what happens when a senior falls and breaks a hip...

His meteoric rise, his bids for the LWC, his success at WW...its all the first half of the last decade...its fast approaching a decade...2004 was when he beat Matt Hughes for the WWC...since then its not been so good for him, he gets squashed by Georges Saint Pierre, he gets Squashed by Matt Hughes, he gets Squashed by Georges Saint Pierre, he retreats to 155lbs, he fails to make the finals of TUF, he beats Jens Pulver (who he couldnt when it mattered most, public opinion doesnt even consider that a huge achievement, nevermind my own thoughts on the matter) he beats Sherk because Sherk decides he's a professional boxer after all, then he beats TUFers, He makes a reign for himself, but its a reign where he isnt fighting people near his standard...because those who could beat him, are either not willing to fight him, or are not selected by Joe Silva to take up the challenge...but when one of them does...or he makes a mistake which sooner or later he will...or woe betide he becomes bored and decides to move divisions or something...you will see him begin to slip. in an ideal world for Jay, he has another two years...but overnight that threatens to swallow him whole before then end of this year...If Tyson Griffin wont gut him, Frankie Edgar will...the pair are like rabid dogs securely on a lead, taking out the prospects which, like a hedge need trimming before they cast their shadow over the sundial which is Penn himself....but all it would take is for a meteroic rise of a Light Weight fighter standing in the wings that we dont know about...or the appearance of new tallent in the division, particularly if they are featherweight branch outs...and when he slips...it will be to the bottom of the pack.

I personally cant wait for someone to liberate the division, heck, merge the LWs of WEC and UFC if it can provide a killer who might axe the ruling prince. I've been saying it eversince he beat Jens Pulver that a dark cloud has descended upon the division, that many a prospect would be slaughtered or sacrificed until someone remove the idol and take upon themself the mantle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u-lW_GMgDI

Wishful thinking? No King rules forever in this world. His prime is past. The trap doors already dropped we're just waiting to reach the end of the rope now.

wow

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by 3dlee

wow

I do appologise, you have to understand that whilst I positively dislike BJ Penn, I am pleased that he has finally established a legacy outside of the few great achievements of his prime. He deserves that much because he is the best pure skill in the world without a doubt. I dont dispute that, and I dont deny his legitamacy to contend for the title after Jens, nor his defenses which apart from him calling his own win in the Sherk match I find no fault with.

However, he will soon tire, his rule is an age of darkness because of his character and because of what past rullers have displayed.

I like to think i'm harsh but fair.

you are all good, friend. i tend to act similarly discussing gsp and matt. i still believe mr hughes could take gsps arm off any day he tried. i was on mmaforums today and they had a poll of best wrestler in mma and matt wasnt even listed. how soon we forget the greats i guess.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by 3dlee

you are all good, friend. i tend to act similarly discussing gsp and matt. i still believe mr hughes could take gsps arm off any day he tried. i was on mmaforums today and they had a poll of best wrestler in mma and matt wasnt even listed. how soon we forget the greats i guess.

Its also perspective. The most recent stuff always seems to take precident. You know how the UFC always go on about "the biggest match in UFC History" until...the next card...and then, that main event is the biggest, and the earlier event is completely lost.

People dont understand just how meteoric and impressive a younger BJ Penn was...they dont remember what he did to Caol Uno....they dont understand that at the time, that was shocking. They forget that Jens Pulver was constantly slated to looose to Penn. They forget what it actually means that Jens Pulver was the first person to give him a loss...what was an enthralling achievement that noone else could match in beat Penn in his own weight class, is now merely a boring and unimportant statistic.

People move on VERY quickly...thats my point about BJ Penn...we talk about him now...but he only potentially needs to lose once...and he will fade away like a gas giant...same with Anderson Silva...same with Georges Saint Pierre.

Its why noone now is impressed by Royce Gracie....and yet, at the time the feat he achieved is EASILY matchable to Brock Lesnar vs Randy Couture, equally as important as the GSP/Hughes fueds,...but all things eventually get lost in time....and it doesnt just happen to fighters...it happens to Fight Camps....Jacksons Submission Fighting has become the New Miletich Fighting Systems....Brazillian Top Team has eclipsed Chute Boxe...every tom dick and harry have gyms and associations..that at earlier points in time they didnt have...you couldnt open a gym without having been a champion, or without having purist success with olympic/top tier level sports athletes...now...if you want to, you can go train with...Lauzon MMA, or some such...no offence to the Bros...but what exactly is it they have done to earn the right to teach? they havent contended, they havent won championships, they havent...but then when you have former TUFers as Coaches after possibly less then a year since they went through as contestants...what do you expect...These are NOT the days of Baz Rutten, or Ian Freeman, Times are changing

So I think that its good for some of us to remain fixed with anticipation to certain points in past history to remind people, that HEY Patrick Miletich was the GodFather of Welterweights, even if you've never seen him fight, and Jens Pulver did beat Baby Jay Penn, and Matt Hughes did score the first blow in the Fueds, and Randy Couture did Assassinate Tim Sylvia, and Tito Ortiz should never have won the UFC59 decision against Forrest Griffin. These past Legends, Champions, important events were as big for their time, as anything we are experiencing right now.

I refuse to forget that. I think we owe it as viewers of these magnificent speciemens, to avoid the rusts and spoils of time on their careers and their achievements. Even in twenty years time, I shall still say that Matt Hughes was the most dominant Welterweight that ever lived. I shall be there to remind people that its still current...that these achievements, which these artists have striven hard for are not just acolades to be archieved in some dark corner of a website...you think that the pioneers didnt train as hard? that there matches were less important because they lived at a more primative age within the sports History??

Some people do. But we dont.