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  #21  
Old 12-23-2009, 06:27 PM
Chris F
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Actually, Jesus' messages were primarily directed at the Israelites. The very people who worshipped in the Temple and had studied the Torah their entire lives.

The same terms "congregation" and "assembly" were used in the Old Testament to describe the people of Israel. So, you could actually say that Jesus was speaking to the "church" of Israel first and foremost, when He talked. I think Paul understood this when he stated that the Gospel was for the "Jew first."

There is no linguistic distinction in the Bible between the "church" and the nation of Israel. The word "church" was added into the Bible, centuries after it was originally written, to create an artificial, man-made barrier between Jews and Christians. That was never GOD's intention.
Excelent points. The gentiles were adopted and graphed into the fold and never replaces the jews.
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  #22  
Old 12-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Chris F
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Do they believe that they are believers or do they without question believe in Christ? I think that is the difference.
Even the devil and all the demons believe in Christ so that is not all that is needed for salvation. I think this modern day error has alot of people trapped with a false sense of secruity.
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  #23  
Old 12-23-2009, 08:20 PM
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Even the devil and all the demons believe in Christ so that is not all that is needed for salvation. I think this modern day error has alot of people trapped with a false sense of secruity.
I actually have no sense of security. that's the goal for me.
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  #24  
Old 12-23-2009, 08:34 PM
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Even the devil and all the demons believe in Christ so that is not all that is needed for salvation. I think this modern day error has alot of people trapped with a false sense of secruity.
Belief IS enough.

BUT....you do have to be Human.

Angelic Belief is not enough...the Offer of Salvation isnt made for Demons anymore then its made for goldfish...whether they believe or not.


Secondly. They dont believe, they acknowledge. There is a slight difference. They dont believe that Christ died to save them...they simply acknowledge who Christ is...well thats not even enough for a Human...almost ever Athiest knows who Christ is...that doesnt mean they believe in him. Acknowledging is NOT the same as having Faith.
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  #25  
Old 12-23-2009, 09:19 PM
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It always intrigues me in the Gospels that Demons instantly regonise Jesus as sovereign, they fear him, they fear his coming. And they do exactly as he commands, whereas we seemingly ignore, disobey or just fail.

What do people think about the Legion's that beg to be put in the Pigs?

We done this in bible study a few weeks ago and wasn't one hundred percent on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #26  
Old 12-23-2009, 09:21 PM
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Belief IS enough.
Read the book of James and then tell me if you still think that.
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  #27  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:06 PM
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The word "church" in the Bible is actually the Greek word ekklesia, which means "congregation" or "assembly." So it's a reference to GOD's people, those who dedicate their lives to following Him. The actually physical location of the church is irrelevant.

So, with that understanding, I would say that the "church" is for believers to learn about GOD, to be accountable to each other, and to grow together in Christ.

Now you can bring a non-believer to a church meeting but they will never be a part of the church unless they accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't false believers inside the church. According to the parable of the sower (Matthew 13), 2 out of every 3 church members are false believers. That means that over 66% of the church is going to Hell (some would say that number is overly optimistic). This is why GOD will bring His judgement down upon the church first, then the unbelievers.

This also helps to explain why so many church members today seem to be intent on steering their congregations down a liberal path with no concern about what GOD's Word actually says.
Back in the 80's or 90's, Billy Graham did some studies that put the number of truly saved people in any given church on any given Sunday at around 25% or 30%, or so he was quoted in several sermons I've heard
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  #28  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:08 PM
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Read the book of James and then tell me if you still think that.
I still belief that. Salvation isnt about works of faith, although those are probably proof that one has faith. Salvation is a free gift and all you need to do is accept that free gift.

Salvation is a gift of grace, there isnt any work you have to achieve in order to obtain it, there is also no work you can do, bar the unforgivable sin, to looose the gift either. Its only offered to restore mankinds position in eden, ergo its not open to Angelic Host of any sort whatsoever.

Now the process of faith and a christ centred life AFTER conversion...well thats different...but thats about building on the cornerstone...its not about the cornerstone itself. Before you have works of faith, you have to have the faith in the first place.

Now...if...say...you already have a faith...like, for example, the Jews..then its slightly easier to jump right to works stemming from faith because the only thing you have to tweak is a bit of theology.

Saint Paul writes to the Heathen...but I suspect James was writing to the Messianic Jews...that might account for the differences in emphasis. Jews just need to repent and be saved, just change their theology. They already believe in GOD...they just need a deeper level of Revelation

Well half the people that Saint Paul wrote to...never had that belief in the first place. Try and think of it like this. Saint Paul teaches the begginners class on Salvation, the actually concepts of Faith to those that knew nothing. Saint James is writting the advanced class, for those who already have faith, how then it might be used, those he wrote to already understood more then the heathen.
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  #29  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:16 PM
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The church can be broken down into five groups. The church can be believers in a specific building, believers in a city/town, believers in a state/province, believers in a country and believers in the world. They are all under the same devine authority.

Church is for believers to come together to be equipped, edified, taught and encouraged to take the word to the world. Church is also for non believers because it is where they will hear the word preached(hopefully) because Faith comes from hearing and through hearing the word of the Lord.

Church membership is only for believers and should be a covenant membership. Unfortunately most church's only ask you to show up to a membership class and your in.

A good book I just recently read that talks about this very thing is Vintage Church by Mark Driscoll and Gerry Brashears. There is not a detail about the church they did not miss.
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  #30  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:21 PM
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Unfortunately most church's only ask you to show up to a membership class and your in.

.

The Brethren Dont

My Mother was originally Brethren you know.
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