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  #21  
Old 11-26-2009, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post

Do what your told, or you'll get into trouble. Its not rocket science. Deep philosophical discussion is mute.


I know a bunch of people that were ordered to pay a tax on tea... they didn't and look where they ended up... good topic for discussion

An illegal order is still an illegal order.... so that is something to discuss

If I am ordered to bring someone back alive.. but it's my life or theirs... guess who is coming out on the short end....
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  #22  
Old 11-26-2009, 06:33 PM
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1) I know a bunch of people that were ordered to pay a tax on tea... they didn't and look where they ended up... good topic for discussion

2) An illegal order is still an illegal order.... so that is something to discuss

If I am ordered to bring someone back alive.. but it's my life or theirs... guess who is coming out on the short end....
1) That wasnt in the Military was it? Do you know what they would do to Soldiers who refused to fight during the Great Wars? They shot them as Deserters on the grounds of treason. Try and keep within the framework of comparison

2) Really? Tell me something. During the Nazi war crimes...what was the status of the majority of those who received State Execution? Were they the ones GIVING the Orders...or the ones Carrying the Orders out. Also...an Illegal Order assume the Order has actually been given. Noone is asking those Soldiers to committ acts of cruelty...there is no order. This is not about the morality of following a dodgy order...its about not following a perfectly valid order, so that you may do something dodgy.

3) I know a bunch of people who lied to their citizens, and then lied to their Allies, and then lied to the world in order to create a governmental coup in some middle eastern country, on the basis of false and bad intelligence....and look what happened to them
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  #23  
Old 11-26-2009, 09:29 PM
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*shrug*
They shouldn't be giving false statements.
Thats where the trouble starts.
Assault is nothing, giving an official false statement is a felony.

I am not saying I think these guys should get in trouble,
but why are these guys lying?
Say you roughed him up a little, nobody cares lol
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  #24  
Old 11-26-2009, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by atomdanger View Post
*shrug*
They shouldn't be giving false statements.
Thats where the trouble starts.
Assault is nothing, giving an official false statement is a felony.

I am not saying I think these guys should get in trouble,
but why are these guys lying?
Say you roughed him up a little, nobody cares lol
thats probably true

"He needed a kicking so I gave him one...sorry" is a thumbs up
"I did not have sexual relations with..." is a BIG thumbs down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs LMAO Why is it always the Democrats??
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  #25  
Old 11-26-2009, 11:01 PM
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You said..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
Do what your told, or you'll get into trouble. Its not rocket science. Deep philosophical discussion is mute.
That is not correct and is actually at the heart of MANY things...

My framework for comparison was what you said. Sorry I am not being simple minded.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
1) That wasnt in the Military was it? Do you know what they would do to Soldiers who refused to fight during the Great Wars? They shot them as Deserters on the grounds of treason. Try and keep within the framework of comparison
well.. if you call a King setting down a law, "military".. then sure.. but actually it's quite worse..

As far as the "great wars" (a phrase I hate)...that was then.. this is now..And I am sure people were killed for refusing to fight. But that is different from killing someone that you set out to capture..going by your framework of comparison



Quote:
2) Really? Tell me something. During the Nazi war crimes...what was the status of the majority of those who received State Execution? Were they the ones GIVING the Orders...or the ones Carrying the Orders out. Also...an Illegal Order assume the Order has actually been given. Noone is asking those Soldiers to committ acts of cruelty...there is no order. This is not about the morality of following a dodgy order...its about not following a perfectly valid order, so that you may do something dodgy.
Dave.. your twisting your on points to fit what you want to say. You just implied that the soldiers of Nazi Germany who shot and killed jews, homosexuals and other "inferior" peoples did the right thing cause they were ordered to do so.

Quote:
3) I know a bunch of people who lied to their citizens, and then lied to their Allies, and then lied to the world in order to create a governmental coup in some middle eastern country, on the basis of false and bad intelligence....and look what happened to them
So "we" lied to you? Like your government has never done the same..???

As far as "a governmental coup in some middle eastern country, on the basis of false and bad intelligence"

Look at them now.. much better than before...and a person that was a mass murderer and tried to plan an assassination was killed....
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2009, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
thats probably true

"He needed a kicking so I gave him one...sorry" is a thumbs up
"I did not have sexual relations with..." is a BIG thumbs down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs LMAO Why is it always the Democrats??

Exactly, people respect honesty.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2009, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Spiritwalker View Post
1) well.. if you call a King setting down a law, "military".. then sure.. but actually it's quite worse..

2) As far as the "great wars" (a phrase I hate)...that was then..

3) this is now..And I am sure people were killed for refusing to fight. But that is different from killing someone that you set out to capture..going by your framework of comparison





4) Dave.. your twisting your on points to fit what you want to say. You just implied that the soldiers of Nazi Germany who shot and killed jews, homosexuals and other "inferior" peoples did the right thing cause they were ordered to do so.



5) So "we" lied to you? Like your government has never done the same..???

As far as "a governmental coup in some middle eastern country, on the basis of false and bad intelligence"

Look at them now.. much better than before...and a person that was a mass murderer and tried to plan an assassination was killed....
1) A Monarchy is not the same as Martial Law. England has been rulled by Both since her conception...infact England has also been a Republic. King George was clinically insane...as in, had mental health issues. He was a King, a King is a Soverign Ruller put in place by Birthright, which is Given by GOD. Yes, Monarchic Government is a Dictatorship, but its a far cry from a Military Dictatorship. That happens when Martial Law is declared, as was, Halfway through the Republic within the first decade of life FREE from the Monarch. The corrupt Government was forceably Disbanded by The Grand Protectorate of England. His name was Mr Cromwell. The SAME guy who Led the Parliamentarians and beat the Royalists during the Civil war...was within the Decade a Military dictator. He would have lined the collony members up, and shot them all in the head. That would have solved the problem. He was of course more then 100 years before his time. (England had its civil war before you) THAT is Government run by the Military. Its happened in the Classics, its happened in England....and if you think you dislike your Government now...pray you NEVER suffer under Martial Law. THEN you would know true Tyranny.

2)

3) I suspect they would still do it now. But the point was, that that is military discipline...The comparisson was not, again, about the substance, but about the rule. You break the rules, you pay the price. You refuse to do your duty, you die...that could be refusing to fight...or breaking other rules like When you Commander wants the subject you just murdered alive...he meant, DONT bring him back in a bodybag.

4) again. its not about the substance its about the rules. WHO is responsible for the deaths of the Jews and Homosexuals. Those who DID the killing, OR those who made the Orders. Forget right and wrong for a moment and follow logic...WHAT is the illegality? issuing an illegal order...or following an order?

the answer is, giving the illegal order. Following the order is pardonable (well at least on a legal level. Those who got done for war crimes...probably never actually did much killing. For a start, the Germans made the homenation police forces do much of the work (under the guise of new employers) and secondly...have you not heard the infamous account of a German who was present when a load of Jews were executed in a mass grave infront of one of the Nazi Cabinet...who...lets say...had a weak stomach following the carrying out of his own orders I can try and get names if you wish...but I remember watching a documentary about it.

Again....I am not disscussing, or giving my personal views on the morality, I am not condoning, nor condemning, I am not talking about rights and wrongs, about spiritual implications. I am talking about apportioning objective legal responsibility...and I am talking about rules in the way of orders...you either follow them, or you disobey.

5) oh aye, our Government was just as bad as yours in that affaire, since for a moment we were a mere extention of your Secretary of State department dealing solely in foreign affairs on your behalf.

You have a jab at me when I speak objectively about legal responsibility for the holocaust...and then suddenly with Iraq...its ends justifies the means???

Again...how do you know my grounds are even on a moral basis? What?? you think I believe you should have let a dictator committ Genocide?? You think my objection is based on the fact that you lied, or twisted the truth??

Your Wrong. MY objection to the Invasion of Iraq, had nothing to do with whether it was right or wrong to go to war, and nothing to do with whether Saddam was really a threat or not. Its not about morality at all.

Its about the rules, once again. I would have been in favour of the war, had the United States actually followed procedure properly. I'm disgusted because of the complete and total disregard for International Law, I'm disgusted that when the United Nations failed to Sanction something, YOU went ahead and did it anyway. THATS my boggle. Without a yes the answer was no...so what did you guys do? disobeyed...and thats what this is all about...stop muddying the water with morals and ethics, when whilst debatable, that wont save you from a court marshall or a bullet. Lets talk about the legal laws regarding war, what is permitted, what is not permitted, orders given, and apportioning of blame for those orders, and the consequences of disobeying. THATS what this whole thing is all about.

You will find its cut and dry, and incredibly simple...Terribly Enlightenmentesque...its a case of logic. Did Soldier follow Order, yes or no. If the answer is no, guess whose to blame, the soldier. If the answer is yes...then was the order legal, if the answer is no, then there is no case, if the answer is yes, its the commander that has to answer.
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2009, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by atomdanger View Post
Exactly, people respect honesty.
Thats true. Its also a matter of legality here aswell. Its about a procedure that has to be followed. You give a statement, you tell the truth, if its bad you end up in trouble. BUT if you lie, and get found out...the trouble becomes multiple...not only is there the original problem...but now thats compounded by the breach of protocol...being beauracratic in administering justice, which is the nature of most things (the military in an organised setting...not necc on the field) means that they might see a breach as worse then the original crime. They can cope with misbehavior...but they really dispise being taken for a ride over it.

plus...any ommision of truth makes you look guilty...even when you might not be. There is a chance that these guys are innocent...but because they lied...maybe for some other reason, maybe truely out of fear just to distance themselves from an investigation that might clear them...they now look fully guilty, of the full crime by default....and thats not a good place to be in.
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  #29  
Old 11-27-2009, 02:02 AM
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Thats true. Its also a matter of legality here aswell. Its about a procedure that has to be followed. You give a statement, you tell the truth, if its bad you end up in trouble. BUT if you lie, and get found out...the trouble becomes multiple...not only is there the original problem...but now thats compounded by the breach of protocol...being beauracratic in administering justice, which is the nature of most things (the military in an organised setting...not necc on the field) means that they might see a breach as worse then the original crime. They can cope with misbehavior...but they really dispise being taken for a ride over it.

plus...any ommision of truth makes you look guilty...even when you might not be. There is a chance that these guys are innocent...but because they lied...maybe for some other reason, maybe truely out of fear just to distance themselves from an investigation that might clear them...they now look fully guilty, of the full crime by default....and thats not a good place to be in.
Good point, once you're caught lying your credibility goes out the window,
now that people know they're liars, they can't beleive them.
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2009, 02:19 AM
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If you disobeyed a superior officer...you'd probably get it in the head from them. I doubt it would end up in the media until AFTER you've been prosecuted.

This has nothing to do with Terrorism Mr Rosario, this is to do with following orders....or not following orders so to speak. Nevermind what that actually entails. The Military has a very explicit heirachical structure, with very specific rules regardless and irrespective of circumstance.

Do what your told, or you'll get into trouble. Its not rocket science. Deep philosophical discussion is mute. The subject matter is pretty much mute. If your ordered to capture someone alive and you kill them, you have failed. It doesnt matter whether they deserved to die, or whether anyone will miss them, or whether the world would be safer without them. Besides, The Military is not about Killing, its about defending. You make bloody sure your captive dies as a matter of your self defense...or else it will be seen as a war crime. It doesnt matter if you like it, or aggree with it. Free Thinking is not required. Its an Extreme J culture. Follow the Rules, or you'll end up in trouble.
Dave, I served in the US Army for 10 years. How long did you serve? Oh, that's right. So maybe you shouldn't be lecturing me on how the military hierarchy works.
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