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  #11  
Old 02-08-2009, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rockdawg21

I hope MLB goes down, it's a boring sport anyways.
Sorry, but thats just stupid.
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2009, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiritwalker
Well no offense to those that train "MMA". Something I have had to come to terms with.. training in MMA is not the same as training in a traditional martial art.

But I don't feel that "banned substances" is rampant in MMA. Even though this is individual competition, there often seem to be more of a "team atmosphere" than in baseball and football. And a team is no good when it focuses on one individual.

Sure there are those that feel that they needs something extra (banned stuff).. Bonner, Silva, Franca, Gracie (imo Sherk got screwed)...But you also have Nick and Melivn who just used drugs.. If you look at all of those fighters... and others..you will see a lot of self centered-ness..

paying a baseball player 20 mil a year, to play a game.. a football player 60 mil. Yet they are flown everywhere.. medical care, team doctors, staff upon staff.. millions of dollars to be made in sponsors...

yet when the big game is won.. rarely do you hear about the team that brought them there, it's always "I".. you never hear about "thanks Nike for support.."..

But when a fighter.. wins the big game..what's the firstthing the fighter really has to say... "I wanna thank..."

To many "team sports" competitors think that the revolves around them... no concept of team.. it's all individual achievement, and that's where the huge need for steroids comes from... IMO


It isn't the fault of the users.. it's a fault in the athlete. IMO
That is a ridiculous sweeping generalization IMO, and it shouldn't make a whole lot of sense to anybody who actually follows sports. It's like you are just trying to talk up fighters and put down other athletes. Not a whole lot of substance there.

Baseball has had it's problems, but lets not forget about all the problems the fight game has had. Fighters are grossly underpaid in terms of what the UFC is raking in profits, and there IS problems with banned substances or we would not hear about people getting busted.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2009, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason 16
QFT I just never got into MLB and I just dont get why there payed so dam much

When I was a kid.. I could quaote fact and numbers all day long..

But when we went without a world series... I said "F" them.. and haven't looked back.
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2009, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
That is a ridiculous sweeping generalization IMO, and it shouldn't make a whole lot of sense to anybody who actually follows sports. It's like you are just trying to talk up fighters and put down other athletes. Not a whole lot of substance there.
Please be careful when you elude that I don't follow my sports.. saying I don't make sense on this should really make you think where your opinions are rooted.. And should you choose to read what I posted.. you would see I am only putting down people that don't really deserve to be "up".

And while I am not a fan of Nate, Nick and Melive.. at least they haven't been caught with a loaded AK..

Former AZ Cardinal arrested in Phoenix cocaine ring bust -http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story/Former-AZ-Cardinal-arrested-in-Phoenix-cocaine/eCeX-6tBn0qmKRXCfbyDYQ.cspx

Try this.. Google .. nfl players arrested
Then try nba players arrested
Then try MMA Fighters arrested

Then drill through your results and compare drug related and violent related charges.. let me know what you find...

Actually don't.. I already know..

1 MMA guy/gal in 37 nfl, and 42 NBA...

Funny that..



Just what is the "ridiculous sweeping generalization"?

That MMA is rampant with HGH and the like? Or that baseball and football and basketball are SEVERALLY OVER PAID.. and are EXTREMELY self centered on the whole?


Pay has nothing to do with MMA problems with fighters.. that is a problem with the companies they fight for.. not the morally or ethically piss poor choices that that many make.

That's why I am a HUGE fan of the fighters I root for.. very rarely do you hear about crap from them.

When was the last time you heard a pro quarter back say "thanks" to "nike", when was the last time you heard a center say... "this game is dedicated to ..."...
Or thanks to my coaches...

Jeff Monson gets busted for graffiti, yet Kobe gets smacked down for rape at worst.. and having an affair at best?



Quote:
Baseball has had it's problems, but lets not forget about all the problems the fight game has had. Fighters are grossly underpaid in terms of what the UFC is raking in profits, and there IS problems with banned substances or we would not hear about people getting busted.

There are over 100 UFC fighters.. over 100 (pretty sure) WEC fighters..

how many of those have tested positive? And again.. how many since tested become a "pop quiz" and before and after fights?

So make fires where you want about banned stuff being rampant.. I sure don't see it. But maybe we should be concentrating on where is truely IS rampant.. NFL, MLBA and such..

If you want to talk about money for fighters.. I can say that ALL fighters.. (not just UFC) should be paid more.. but consider these figures... Defiantly more than Chuck could make running a dojo.. trust me.. I know.


MAX 25 or 5 minute fights.. not counting training camps.. Granted.. these guys have to pay for training, but no one twists their arms..


The lowest paid amount $2,000 x 15 = 133.00 a minute.. not bad change there..

Where as Andre earned 60,000 a minute for a WHOLE 25 minute fight...

Should MMA fighters earn more? Sure.. but with sponsors paying for what amounts to training.. and we are talking about 25 minutes max work... they aren't doing too bad..



MAIN EVENT FIGHTERS

– Fedor Emelianenko $300,000 (no win bonus) def. Andre Arlovski $1,500,000 (win bonus would have been $250,000) -


MAIN CARD FIGHTERS

– Josh Barnett $500,000 (no win bonus) def. Gilbert Yvel $30,000 (win bonus would have been $9,300)

– Vitor Belfort $200,000 (includes $80,000 win bonus) def. Matt Lindland $225,000 (win bonus would have been $75,000)

– Renato "Babalu" Sobral $90,000 (includes $30,000 win bonus) def. Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou $50,000 (win bonus would have been $50,000)

– Paul Buentello $90,000 (includes $20,000 win bonus) def. Kiril Sidelnikov $10,000 (win bonus would have been $25,000)

– Dan Lauzon $12,000 (no win bonus) def. Bobby Green $4,000 (win bonus would have been $4,000)

– Jay Hieron $45,000 (includes $25,000 win bonus) def. Jason High $10,000 (win bonus would have been $5,000)


PRELIMINARY CARD FIGHTERS

– Antonio Rogerio Nogueira $150,000 (includes $30,000 win bonus) def. Vladimir Matyushenko $50,000 (win bonus would have been $30,000)

– L.C. Davis $14,000 (includes $7,000 win bonus) def. Bao Quach $7,000 (win bonus would have been $6,000)

– Albert Rios $6,000 (includes $3,000 win bonus) def. Antonio Duarte $3,000 (win bonus would have been $2,000)

– Brett Cooper $10,000 (includes $5,000 win bonus) def. Patrick Speight $2,000 (win bonus would have been $3,000)
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Last edited by Spiritwalker; 02-08-2009 at 11:02 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2009, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
Sorry, but thats just stupid.
And why's that? There's too much waiting involved. Even golf has more action on television than a baseball game.

However, it's fun to go to the games because of all the side-activities
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  #16  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockdawg21
And why's that? There's too much waiting involved. Even golf has more action on television than a baseball game.

However, it's fun to go to the games because of all the side-activities

I don't think that baseball is "boring'.. but I have more fun watching a bunch or 9 year olds play and have fun rather than pros..
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:40 AM
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Rockdawg, it's stupid because you are sitting there wishing that the MLB will fail just because you don't like it. It's still one of the biggest sports in the country, and it always will be, so lots of people disagree with you.

Spirit, your logic is just flawed, and your other post DOES NOT make sense. "It isn't the fault of the users, it's a fault in the athlete"?! WTF?

Seriously, while you were busy going on a tirade about Cardinals players getting arrested and Kobe Bryant being a rapist, you seem to forget about people like Rampage Jackson going on a literal rampage, and people like Justin Levens murdering his girlfriend then killing himself. I could go on. MMA has had it's problems, besides just grossly underpaying their fighters. We have seen fixed fights, questionable title-shots, and constant accusations of cheating.

You act like you are sitting on some high horse by saying that guys in the NBA, MLB, and NFL are overpaid, when in reality you are not taking into account WHY those players are paid what they are. Those franchises make a LOT of money, and their players are the reason for that. Unlike in the UFC, the biggest stars are compensated FAIRLY and HANDSOMELY for their role in putting asses in the seats. The rest of the guys get paid good because they have unions that see to it. That is not wrong, that is FAIR. Actually, I could even make an argument that players in the NFL are getting shafted by the league because the NFL refuses to open it's books and show what they are really making in profit.

In one breath you reluctantly try to bring yourself to agree with me by saying you think all fighters should get paid more, but that you think they are doing okay because sponsors take care of them. So which is it? Are they making enough money or not?

Bottom line is the UFC underpays ALL their fighters, and the ones at the bottom of the totem poll are hardly raking in the big bucks from sponsorship deals. Then on top of it, the UFC pays them peanuts to come in and get knocked out. Yeah, that's really honorable busiiness practices. Send a guy out to get KO'd in front of millions of people for 10 grand, while some 2nd stringer in the NBA is getting league minimum and STILL making more money than the highest paid fighter on any UFC card.

As for banned substances being rampant in MMA, IT IS, deal with it. In fact, if I am not mistaken, I believe it was only a year or two ago where I read that Matt Hughes himself said there is a LOT of people doing it. Somebody please correct me on that if I am wrong. It is a problem in ALL sports right now, not just ONE.

Your statistics on the number of people arrested is just funny. Seriously, did you forget how many MORE players are in those leagues? Really? Did all logic simply escape you when typing that?

But the ONE thing you said that shows me you don't know what you are talking about is THIS...

Quote:
When was the last time you heard a pro quarter back say "thanks" to "nike", when was the last time you heard a center say... "this game is dedicated to ..."...
Or thanks to my coaches...


Next time maybe you should actually watch football before you comment on it...
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2009, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
Rockdawg

Spirit, your logic is just flawed, and your other post DOES NOT make sense. "It isn't the fault of the users, it's a fault in the athlete"?! WTF?
Read it again.. think about it.. maybe read it slowly...


Quote:
Seriously, while you were busy going on a tirade about Cardinals players getting arrested and Kobe Bryant being a rapist, you seem to forget about people like Rampage Jackson going on a literal rampage, and people like Justin Levens murdering his girlfriend then killing himself. I could go on. MMA has had it's problems, besides just grossly underpaying their fighters. We have seen fixed fights, questionable title-shots, and constant accusations of cheating.

Pleas do go on.. please.. Justin and 'Page... reported mental issues..Bring some more... I can give you prolly 15 for every one....


and we aren't talking about pay.. we are talking about the individual fighters.... and again.. if you look at the numbers... compare the violent crimes of "major sports" to MMA.. look at drug use.. I am not talking about the fewer MMA fighters compared to other athletes, do a ratio.. "Pro Sports" do not foster a team atmosphere any more.. it's about the individual.. where as MMA is about the individual fighter.. and that fighter (if they are worth anything) KNOWS that they are squat without their team...

MMA has no problem paying it's fighters.. MMA is the sport. they don't write the checks... so your post has no substance either.. at least not one that I can see.

Quote:
You act like you are sitting on some high horse by saying that guys in the NBA, MLB, and NFL are overpaid, when in reality you are not taking into account WHY those players are paid what they are. Those franchises make a LOT of money,
Yep. but none of mine.. when I can take me and my family to see a AAA Charlotte Knights game for under $50 (including parking) and get a free fireworks show.. there is no way I will pay Field Level $350 per seat per Game for a yankee game.. and players that are trying harder.. and teams that are working harder..

Quote:
Unlike in the UFC, the biggest stars are compensated FAIRLY and HANDSOMELY for their role in putting asses in the seats. The rest of the guys get paid good because they have unions that see to it. That is not wrong, that is FAIR. Actually, I could even make an argument that players in the NFL are getting shafted by the league because the NFL refuses to open it's books and show what they are really making in profit.
When a fighter is getting 3 grand for a fight.. sure they should get more.

Quote:
In one breath you reluctantly try to bring yourself to agree with me by saying you think all fighters should get paid more,
I reluctantly do nothing.

Quote:
but that you think they are doing okay because sponsors take care of them. So which is it? Are they making enough money or not?
Sponsor money and per fight/contract money are different things..

Quote:
Bottom line is the UFC underpays ALL their fighters,
Incorrect.

Quote:
and the ones at the bottom of the totem poll are hardly raking in the big bucks from sponsorship deals.
again.. two different checks. But I do feel that the prelim-fighters should get more.. and even some of the top talent also.. but you do know that no one is forced to fight for the UFC.. but that is a circular argument..


Quote:
Then on top of it, the UFC pays them peanuts to come in and get knocked out. Yeah, that's really honorable busiiness practices.
depends on who you talk to.. and just about every fighter in the world want to fight in the UFC.. so I guess it "ain't all that'

Quote:

Send a guy out to get KO'd in front of millions of people for 10 grand,
10 grand for 15 minutes work??? insurance once you hit the arena til you leave? I would do it.. But I would sure like more.. but what exactly is your problem.. by your statement.. it's ok to get KO'ed ikn front of 10 people for 10 grand???

Quote:
while some 2nd stringer in the NBA is getting league minimum and STILL making more money than the highest paid fighter on any UFC card.
So I say don't pay the NBA guys so much.. that way your famous franchises don't make as much.. and instead of over 100 bucks for me and my wife to GET IN THE DOOR to watch the Panthers play.. (no parking, no food), they can lower ticket prices... hmmmmm

Quote:
As for banned substances being rampant in MMA, IT IS, deal with it. In fact, if I am not mistaken, I believe it was only a year or two ago where I read that Matt Hughes himself said there is a LOT of people doing it.
No to disagree with Matt.. but if it was.. were are all the people getting busted for it?

Quote:
Somebody please correct me on that if I am wrong. It is a problem in ALL sports right now, not just ONE.
ok. Your wrong.

Quote:
Your statistics on the number of people arrested is just funny. Seriously, did you forget how many MORE players are in those leagues? Really? Did all logic simply escape you when typing that?
No it didn't. Andthose numbers are really much higher than that. It was basic math. I really thought that most people would see the ratio.. and understand the higher math behind my statement..

Sorry you didn't understand.


Quote:
But the ONE thing you said that shows me you don't know what you are talking about is THIS...


Quote:
When was the last time you heard a pro quarter back say "thanks" to "nike", when was the last time you heard a center say... "this game is dedicated to ..."...
Or thanks to my coaches...




Next time maybe you should actually watch football before you comment on it...

I do... I watched the Cards get smacked down... ah well...

As for some player thanking his coach.. or his sponsor.. I guess I could have blinked...
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2009, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Read it again.. think about it.. maybe read it slowly...

No need to re-read it. It was poor use of grammar the first time I read it.


Quote:

Pleas do go on.. please.. Justin and 'Page... reported mental issues..Bring some more... I can give you prolly 15 for every one....

So them "reporting" mental issues excuses the actions? Or are you just trying to downplay it because they are fighters?

Quote:
and we aren't talking about pay.. we are talking about the individual fighters.... and again.. if you look at the numbers... compare the violent crimes of "major sports" to MMA.. look at drug use.. I am not talking about the fewer MMA fighters compared to other athletes, do a ratio.. "Pro Sports" do not foster a team atmosphere any more.. it's about the individual.. where as MMA is about the individual fighter.. and that fighter (if they are worth anything) KNOWS that they are squat without their team...
You are WRONG. Plenty of players in all the leagues have great sportsmanship, and are great team players, but you are too busy being a hater to see that. Of course there are bad seeds, but that comes with any LARGE group of people, even in MMA. Do you just forget about all the less than sportsmalike conduct we see from a lot of fighters all the time?

As for comparing "violent crimes" and "drug use", you have NO way of FAIRLY gauging that. If you are ONLY comparing fighters in the UFC to all of the players in the NFL, NBA, and MLB then you need to realize how many more active players there are in those leagues then there are active fighters in the UFC. More people equals more problems, period.

I also doubt you truly have any real knowledge of every single player and fighters personal and criminal histories to say one group is worse than another. You should not condemn an entire sport or group of sports because of the actions of a few.


Quote:
MMA has no problem paying it's fighters.. MMA is the sport. they don't write the checks... so your post has no substance either.. at least not one that I can see.
The UFC represents pro MMA, you are not dumb, you know what I meant. Besides, it's not like the UFC is the only company who has been underpaying it's fighters.

Quote:
Yep. but none of mine.. when I can take me and my family to see a AAA Charlotte Knights game for under $50 (including parking) and get a free fireworks show.. there is no way I will pay Field Level $350 per seat per Game for a yankee game.. and players that are trying harder.. and teams that are working harder..
That is FINE, don't give them your money. Nobody cares. People are still buying tickets and going to games. Sure players in the minors are trying hard, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE IN THE PROS. However just because you don't want to pay what it costs for a Yankee game does not mean that teams in the pros are not playing hard too. On that note, what about the cost of tickets to a UFC event? LOL!

Quote:
When a fighter is getting 3 grand for a fight.. sure they should get more.
Umm, yeah

Quote:
I reluctantly do nothing
.

Whatever



Quote:
Sponsor money and per fight/contract money are different things..
Umm yeah... but SO WHAT? The UFC should not be basing it's payscale around "perceived" dollar amounts that fighters may or may not be getting from potential sponsors.

Quote:
Incorrect.
No, it's not incorrect. The biggest fighters are not making the numbers they should be on the main events and especially the super-fights. Sure, they pay out bonuses and untold amounts to the biggest guys, but the PPV numbers alone are a dead giveaway that the reported fighter purses are grossly disproportionate to the UFC's profit margin.

Quote:
again.. two different checks. But I do feel that the prelim-fighters should get more.. and even some of the top talent also.. but you do know that no one is forced to fight for the UFC.. but that is a circular argument..
They are not forced to, but if they wannna be a pro fighter in MMA the UFC is the top of the heap.

Quote:
depends on who you talk to.. and just about every fighter in the world want to fight in the UFC.. so I guess it "ain't all that'
I never said the UFC was not the top promotion. I just said they are grossly underpaying their fighters.

Quote:
10 grand for 15 minutes work??? insurance once you hit the arena til you leave? I would do it.. But I would sure like more.. but what exactly is your problem.. by your statement.. it's ok to get KO'ed ikn front of 10 people for 10 grand???

10 grand to possibly be killed or seriously injured? You just don't get it. Just because 10 grand seems like a lot of money to you does not mean it's fair compensation for the what you are providing a multi-million dollar company.

I never said it would be okay in front of 10 people, but doing it in front of millions is much more embarrassing. What are you smoking?


Quote:
So I say don't pay the NBA guys so much.. that way your famous franchises don't make as much.. and instead of over 100 bucks for me and my wife to GET IN THE DOOR to watch the Panthers play.. (no parking, no food), they can lower ticket prices... hmmmmm
Sorry, but I say too bad for you. If you cannot afford 100 bucks, then don't go. UFC ticket prices are MUCH worse than 100 bucks if you wanna get on the floor. Just because you don't like the ticket prices does not mean they should lower them when they are still selling out stadiums, that is simple supply and demand. There is also more too it than just ticket prices. There is merchandising and other functions that generate revenue for those teams, and players are entitled to chunks of those profits as well. It's the basics of any industry. The workers deserve to be fairly compensated for their contribution to the success of a business.


Quote:
No to disagree with Matt.. but if it was.. were are all the people getting busted for it?

Dude, people get busted all the time, quit friggin downplaying it just to hate on other sports, thats really lame. Lest you forget that there are more promotions than just the UFC and it's no secret that roids are all over gyms.


Quote:
ok. Your wrong.

You fail. I was referring to the comment about what Matt had said. Unless you can prove that wrong, just STFU.

It is a problem in all sports, not just one, so again, you fail.


Quote:
No it didn't. Andthose numbers are really much higher than that. It was basic math. I really thought that most people would see the ratio.. and understand the higher math behind my statement..

Sorry you didn't understand.
Umm, yeah I get your ratio, but it is ridiculous and made up. You don't have factual information that backs up that ratio so basically you are just talking out of your rear end. The only link you posted, which was not even linked, was about a Cardinals player in a lame attempt to take a shot at me because I am challenging your narrow minded thought process with intelligent points and discussion.


Quote:

I do... I watched the Cards get smacked down... ah well...

As for some player thanking his coach.. or his sponsor.. I guess I could have blinked...
Obviously you don't, because that was not a smack down. That was a good game. The smack down was what the Cardinals did to the Panthers. Of course you are not going to talk about the good players who do thank God, coaches, family, and fans, you are too busy being a hater. It happens every game and in interviews all the time. Again, what are you smoking?

Some players thank their sponsers in interviews, but you just keep mentioning it because of HOW MUCH fighters HAVE to do it. The reason the fighters HAVE to thank their sponsors a billion times after a fight is because the sponsors in MMA are tiny companies that need all the advertising they can get and they insist that they do it, and that sponsorship money is usually a big chunk of revenue to the already grossly underpaid UFC fighter.





Last edited by J.B.; 02-09-2009 at 04:21 AM.
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2009, 05:04 AM
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The unfortunate thing is as long as their is money at stake and noteriety to gain ppl will try and take that step to be better than the competition. Ppl will always find something that will get them ahead of the competition(roids,hgh,pinetar,vasoline ) its just human nature.
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