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  #31  
Old 10-11-2009, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake View Post
1)The UFC does not have to "help" anybody in that way.

2)In my opinion, the UFC needs to completely sever any ties they have to people who do stupid things like this. When Rampage went crazy, the UFC should have dropped him like a bad habit, but we all knew that wouldn't happen. Junie should have never even been given an opportunity to compete on TUF, but we also know TUF is nothing more than an elaborate joke designed for ratings.

3) UFC cannot force anybody to get "help". Junie is an ADULT, and he is responsible for his own actions, just like everybody else in this world. You seem to be convinced that Junie would never actually hurt anybody, but the fact is he ALREADY DID. Anxiety or not, people have to learn how to rationally deal with their problems.

4) I thinks it's ridiculous when people act like things like "anxiety" or "depression" are a serious mental health issue. Everybody has to deal with anxiety and depression in their lives, people who do things like what Junie and Rampage did are only in need of one kind of help, and that is a good swift kick in the ass. That kind of behavior is almost always drug or alcohol induced and it is a pathetic cry for attention. Somebody call the Waaaambulance.

5) You know what I think would help? Let him stay in jail for a bit, that usually does a good job of making people realize how stupid they are being. Although, it probably won't change much in the long run, because some people in this world are just bullies and brats, and no matter what happens they act like tools.

6) I am all for seeing people turn their life around, .
1) yes. As Americans, they should have helpped him in that manner. Its terribly European to not care a damn about your employees. You should go to Washington DC, tour the monuments, and read what your founders and great Presidents have said makes an American...its a hell of a lot more then being born in the country. There is such a thing as duty to your fellow man, such a thing as community support...and ideally, any Company should take care of its employees. Particularly when they are obviously lacking

2) Why would you discriminate against someone for mental ill health?? There is a nasty attitude in business to try and avoid the problem people as if they will somehow vanish...they are part of society, man up and except it, and deal with them. Junie scored a place on TUF, at that point (particularly before competing) he was under their care. They had ample opportunity to give him the help he needs, it was within their power, easily. They chose not to. that was the wrong choice.

3) The UFC can technically force a fighter under contract to almost do anything. Sure they couldnt force Junie into help...but they could have issued him with an ultimatum...one where he would have chosen help over being blacklisted as a fighter. Sometimes you gotta be cruel to be kind. He needed help, they could, and should have given it to him.

4) thats because you dont understand what Stress is. No actually most people do not suffer from Depression, and most people never face Anxiety. What they suffer from is feeling sad, and feeling worried. Clinical Depression and Anxiety are mental illness caused by chemical imballences within the brain...and after a while they physically can not be corrected without the aid of drugs. Trust me...I know. Suffering from them, and know people who suffer from them. The words are banded about all to often...but clinical anxiety is like when you think you are actually going mad. I had symptoms and noone would believe that I was unwell for months. Clinical Stress is akin in propensity to Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome...and True Depression is akin to Suicide. These are not mere figments of peoples imagination...not if diagnosed by medical staff.

Granted to many people use the words when they dont even know what they mean...but I assure you the majority of people on this planet will not know true Depression and will not know True Anxiety...not ever.

What you dont understand is that you are not in the normal state of mind. You dont think streight. in all intense and purposes you really are not sane. Its hard to tell you what its like. Its, horrible, its dark, and yet also bright green and sickly, its with you every second of every day, its all you think about, every moment, you are trapped in it, you cant get out, noone can help you, noone even believes you. Now if Rampage and Junie have truely been there...then its not required for you to mock them. if they havent and are liars, then fair enough...with Rampage one wonders considering how sane he was and how quickly he recovered...but with Junie...the fool was off the rails before TUF began...you dont need to be a clinical psychologist to diagnose that something wasnt right with him.

5) I have no faith in your rehabilitation service. I think going to prison, unless he's isolated, will make him worse, connect him with the wrong people and put him beyond saving. He needs drugs and he needs hospital treatment. He needs to either be sorted, or he needs drugs strong enough to mask his issues, for eternity.

6) Exactly, and very American without Christ. See, Americans believe that everyone has the freedom to succeed, BUT, if they fail they should not be helped, they should not be bailed out, they failed. Now the Christianity in the American Culture is supposed to work counter to that...strangely its usually the thing missing. The Christianity says that as soon as your fellow man fails, you run to his aid and pick him up. That is also Americanism...its perfectly and wonderfully ballenced...but totally beyond the comprehension of most post-modern Americans. PLEASE dont lose what you have. DONT become like us!
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:24 PM
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Dave, while I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I think you are making a much bigger issue out of this than it actually is.


1. I am not saying that employers should not care about their employees. This has nothing to do with an American vs European thing. It's common sense, if you act like an ass, you will lose your job.

2. This is NOT discrimination against people with mental health issues. Again, if you freak out and assault a bunch of people, or try to run them over with your car, it's not your employers responsibility to come to your aid. Thats not how life works.

3. The UFC can't really "blacklist" the guy as a fighter. Sure, they can keep him out of the UFC, and that IS what they should have done, but there are other places that the guy could fight. The bottom line is that the UFC is a business, and the entire sport is constantly trying to fight off stereotypes that it is full of violent thugs. Character is VERY important in any profession, and you can't expect a company at the highest place in any industry to associate themselves with people who reflect poorly on the company.

4. You don't need to explain anything to me about clinical depression or anxiety. I most certainly do understand what stress is, as does about 95% of the normal world. I absolutely agree with you that there ARE people who have REAL mental health issues, but in this day and age they have a diagnosis for everything. If you can pay for it, any shrink will keep you coming back, it's a joke. In my opinion, it's one of the biggest problems with kids these days, as soon as they act up at school or cry about something, the parents take them to a doctor and get them on anti-depressants, effectively turning them into zombies who don't know how to cope without drugs.

I am not mocking anybody. I really do think that people who do the kind of things that Rampage and Junie did, do deserve a swift kick in the ass. Even if they have a REAL mental health issue, they still need to realize that they cannot just do whatever they want and hurt people. I'm not saying it is a definite fact in their cases, but just my observation that most people who act out the way Junie and Rampage did are usually fueled by drugs or alcohol. Being high or drunk and assaulting people does not make you mentally ill, it just makes you a criminal.

5. I did not say to lock him up for life Dave. A LOT of people do short stints in jail or prison and get out and turn their life around. If that is not enough and the person messes up again, then that is their fault. Again, you say he needs drugs and a hospital bed, but that is ridiculous. Is that how we should treat all people who commit crimes? Jail is supposed to be a place where you go to pay for what you have done. Not where you get to lay around in a drug induced haze.

6. Americans are VERY helping of their fellow people. Quit making this about America. This has nothing to do with not wanting to help people, it's about people dealing with the consequences of their actions, be it losing your job with a major sports league or even going directly to jail. Of course as a Christian I pray for their souls, but that does not mean I cannot be critical of their actions.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:25 AM
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Apparently it's a cold day "down under"... and I am not talking about Australian.

Very nice post. Not that Ty is "wrong".. but you nit the nail on the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake View Post
Dave, while I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I think you are making a much bigger issue out of this than it actually is.


1. I am not saying that employers should not care about their employees. This has nothing to do with an American vs European thing. It's common sense, if you act like an ass, you will lose your job.

2. This is NOT discrimination against people with mental health issues. Again, if you freak out and assault a bunch of people, or try to run them over with your car, it's not your employers responsibility to come to your aid. Thats not how life works.

3. The UFC can't really "blacklist" the guy as a fighter. Sure, they can keep him out of the UFC, and that IS what they should have done, but there are other places that the guy could fight. The bottom line is that the UFC is a business, and the entire sport is constantly trying to fight off stereotypes that it is full of violent thugs. Character is VERY important in any profession, and you can't expect a company at the highest place in any industry to associate themselves with people who reflect poorly on the company.

with the exeption on the NBA and NFL..

4. You don't need to explain anything to me about clinical depression or anxiety. I most certainly do understand what stress is, as does about 95% of the normal world. I absolutely agree with you that there ARE people who have REAL mental health issues, but in this day and age they have a diagnosis for everything. If you can pay for it, any shrink will keep you coming back, it's a joke.DING DING In my opinion, it's one of the biggest problems with kids these days, as soon as they act up at school or cry about something, the parents take them to a doctor and get them on anti-depressants, effectively turning them into zombies who don't know how to cope without drugs.

I am not mocking anybody. I really do think that people who do the kind of things that Rampage and Junie did, do deserve a swift kick in the ass. Even if they have a REAL mental health issue, they still need to realize that they cannot just do whatever they want and hurt people. I'm not saying it is a definite fact in their cases, but just my observation that most people who act out the way Junie and Rampage did are usually fueled by drugs or alcohol. Being high or drunk and assaulting people does not make you mentally ill, it just makes you a criminal.

5. I did not say to lock him up for life Dave. A LOT of people do short stints in jail or prison and get out and turn their life around. If that is not enough and the person messes up again, then that is their fault. Again, you say he needs drugs and a hospital bed, but that is ridiculous. Is that how we should treat all people who commit crimes? Jail is supposed to be a place where you go to pay for what you have done. Not where you get to lay around in a drug induced haze.

6. Americans are VERY helping of their fellow people. Quit making this about America. This has nothing to do with not wanting to help people, it's about people dealing with the consequences of their actions, be it losing your job with a major sports league or even going directly to jail. Of course as a Christian I pray for their souls, but that does not mean I cannot be critical of their actions.
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  #34  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake View Post
Dave, while I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I think you are making a much bigger issue out of this than it actually is.


1. I am not saying that employers should not care about their employees. This has nothing to do with an American vs European thing. It's common sense, if you act like an ass, you will lose your job.

2. This is NOT discrimination against people with mental health issues. Again, if you freak out and assault a bunch of people, or try to run them over with your car, it's not your employers responsibility to come to your aid. Thats not how life works.

3. The UFC can't really "blacklist" the guy as a fighter. Sure, they can keep him out of the UFC, and that IS what they should have done, but there are other places that the guy could fight. The bottom line is that the UFC is a business, and the entire sport is constantly trying to fight off stereotypes that it is full of violent thugs. Character is VERY important in any profession, and you can't expect a company at the highest place in any industry to associate themselves with people who reflect poorly on the company.

4. You don't need to explain anything to me about clinical depression or anxiety. I most certainly do understand what stress is, as does about 95% of the normal world. I absolutely agree with you that there ARE people who have REAL mental health issues, but in this day and age they have a diagnosis for everything. If you can pay for it, any shrink will keep you coming back, it's a joke. In my opinion, it's one of the biggest problems with kids these days, as soon as they act up at school or cry about something, the parents take them to a doctor and get them on anti-depressants, effectively turning them into zombies who don't know how to cope without drugs.

I am not mocking anybody. I really do think that people who do the kind of things that Rampage and Junie did, do deserve a swift kick in the ass. Even if they have a REAL mental health issue, they still need to realize that they cannot just do whatever they want and hurt people. I'm not saying it is a definite fact in their cases, but just my observation that most people who act out the way Junie and Rampage did are usually fueled by drugs or alcohol. Being high or drunk and assaulting people does not make you mentally ill, it just makes you a criminal.

5. I did not say to lock him up for life Dave. A LOT of people do short stints in jail or prison and get out and turn their life around. If that is not enough and the person messes up again, then that is their fault. Again, you say he needs drugs and a hospital bed, but that is ridiculous. Is that how we should treat all people who commit crimes? Jail is supposed to be a place where you go to pay for what you have done. Not where you get to lay around in a drug induced haze.

6. Americans are VERY helping of their fellow people. Quit making this about America. This has nothing to do with not wanting to help people, it's about people dealing with the consequences of their actions, be it losing your job with a major sports league or even going directly to jail. Of course as a Christian I pray for their souls, but that does not mean I cannot be critical of their actions.
1) I beg to differ. I've seen how Europeans treat their employees. Its like slave labour. I've seen place in the US where they are treated much better

2) Rampage I'm not convinced is ill to begin with...but everyone could see the warning signs with Junie. Yes its everyones responsibility to look out for their fellow man...particularly in America.

3) I think the UFC behind closed doors can do FAR more then just delete a fighter from their stable. Multimillion pound Firms who are premiers of their sector can make or break people. They will have contacts all over and I bet they could use the scouts to politically poisen a billion different local shows if they so desired. Besides...someone once told me the Fetittas are Mafia. That means they can do exactly what I said they could do.

4) That only happens in America. In England there is none of this stupidity with citizens self perscribing. You cant "ask your doctor for" anywhere in the whole Earth apart from in the U.S. So that might be applicable for Americans, but for the rest of the world, you are only given what you need...and you have to wait forever to get that...if you get it at all. Do you know that if I had been taken seriously by the SEVEN medical personnel I saw over the course of 6 months then my Anxiety wouldnt have caused my reactive depression!

I was not taken seriously...it did me untold damage...now rather then one problem, I have two. Junie Browning needs professional medical care...if that wasnt obvious to you during TUF then your NOT in the 95% of people you think understand mental ill health when it comes to depression and anxiety

As for being a criminal. People with issues often end up criminals if they dont get the help soon enough. Do you understand that? noone does drugs or drinks for no reason. VERY few are sheer addiction...they GET addicted because they are using it to mask SOMETHING...that something needs identity and eradication PROMPTLY

5) Jail is where you meet other criminals, and where bad things happen to you, whether its short stint or life time. COME ON you KNOW Junie was out his bloody tree and down his burrow BEFORE he assulted anyone! you saw him on TUF and now your suprised at his behaviour

6) NO. I will not quit it. That is EXACTLY the problem with your society without Christian input. There is NO collective responsibility.

As for praying, well thats commendable, but so is actually doing something. The contemplatives are all dead. We now do more then pray. We also fight. We fight against those whispers from deamons that are perverting other souls. We ACTIVELY do something about it. We dont just petition GOD, we ask him to USE US, to deploy us into the situations where we are needed.

Sorry if my view offends. I dont mean it personally against you so much, as the fact that this forum has always seemed to me to be about the sort of debates you and I are having now...and less of the monosylabbic offensive slang...because calling Browning a moron however true that maybe, is inappropriate and unhelpful, and wont change a thing...whereas sharing ideas...actually does. Lest we forget that this place has power with all the trafic it sees with lurkers passing through.

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Old 10-12-2009, 01:35 AM
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I know we have talked about the NBA and the NFL before Spirit, and I agree that the leagues need to be tough on guys who commit crimes, but it's also a different situation in those leagues. Those leagues have players unions and a lot more politics than what the UFC has.

I think the NFL has definitely started cracking down a LOT more than they used to in the past. However, when athletes in those leagues start to become a problem off the court or field, things have a way of working themselves out and those players find themselves shipped out of town until they clean up their act or nobody wants to deal with them. When a player breaks the law and is arrested, the leagues DO punish them. However it's not as simple as just saying "you're fired" in those leagues because of the unions. The UFC is a private company and they can fire anybody they want for pretty much any reason.

As I said, "character" is very important, and there are athletes in every sport that have less than favorable character. The biggest difference in this situation is just the nature of MMA. When you have a UFC fighter assault 3 nurses and tell the hospital staff he will rape their families, and another one running from the cops and basically playing an IRL version of GTA 4, it's not gonna help the "good name" (irony) of a sport where guys lock themselves in a cage and beat themselves into a bloody mess. When the players in other sports get into trouble, violent or otherwise, it rarely is turned back on the sport because sports like football, basketball, and baseball are already well established in the mainstream.

You, I, and all the other real MMA fans know that there are some good, honorable, hard-working athletes in this sport, such as Matt Hughes. However, when you have fighters who are relatively well known pulling stunts like this or what Rampage did it just doesn't help the cause. I also think that the Ultimate Fighter show does not help the cause when you watch these guys get drunk and destroy the house, or just trash talk each other, and the UFC actually manufactures that, and thats a whole different discussion.
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Old 10-12-2009, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
1) I beg to differ. I've seen how Europeans treat their employees. Its like slave labour. I've seen place in the US where they are treated much better

2) Rampage I'm not convinced is ill to begin with...but everyone could see the warning signs with Junie. Yes its everyones responsibility to look out for their fellow man...particularly in America.

3) I think the UFC behind closed doors can do FAR more then just delete a fighter from their stable. Multimillion pound Firms who are premiers of their sector can make or break people. They will have contacts all over and I bet they could use the scouts to politically poisen a billion different local shows if they so desired. Besides...someone once told me the Fetittas are Mafia. That means they can do exactly what I said they could do.

4) That only happens in America. In England there is none of this stupidity with citizens self perscribing. You cant "ask your doctor for" anywhere in the whole Earth apart from in the U.S. So that might be applicable for Americans, but for the rest of the world, you are only given what you need...and you have to wait forever to get that...if you get it at all. Do you know that if I had been taken seriously by the SEVEN medical personnel I saw over the course of 6 months then my Anxiety wouldnt have caused my reactive depression!

I was not taken seriously...it did me untold damage...now rather then one problem, I have two. Junie Browning needs professional medical care...if that wasnt obvious to you during TUF then your NOT in the 95% of people you think understand mental ill health when it comes to depression and anxiety

As for being a criminal. People with issues often end up criminals if they dont get the help soon enough. Do you understand that? noone does drugs or drinks for no reason. VERY few are sheer addiction...they GET addicted because they are using it to mask SOMETHING...that something needs identity and eradication PROMPTLY

5) Jail is where you meet other criminals, and where bad things happen to you, whether its short stint or life time. COME ON you KNOW Junie was out his bloody tree and down his burrow BEFORE he assulted anyone! you saw him on TUF and now your suprised at his behaviour

6) NO. I will not quit it. That is EXACTLY the problem with your society without Christian input. There is NO collective responsibility.

As for praying, well thats commendable, but so is actually doing something. The contemplatives are all dead. We now do more then pray. We also fight. We fight against those whispers from deamons that are perverting other souls. We ACTIVELY do something about it. We dont just petition GOD, we ask him to USE US, to deploy us into the situations where we are needed.

Sorry if my view offends. I dont mean it personally against you so much, as the fact that this forum has always seemed to me to be about the sort of debates you and I are having now...and less of the monosylabbic offensive slang...because calling Browning a moron however true that maybe, is inappropriate and unhelpful, and wont change a thing...whereas sharing ideas...actually does. Lest we forget that this place has power with all the trafic it sees with lurkers passing through.

We are not Sodom...and if I see somewhere standards are slipping. I shall make my complaint public


1) This has nothing to with America vs Europe. No doubt, our cultures are different, but this situation has nothing to do with problems with European Labor Laws.

2) There is no evidence, that I know of, that proves the Fertita brothers are involved in organized crime. Also, it's widely known that the reach of the Italian mafia in Las Vegas has greatly depleted from what it once was. Not to say it's entirely dead, but it's almost there. Even if it is true, they would not waste their time on a person like Junie Browning.

3) Sure, maybe that don't happen across the pond, but it does happen here. It's not just people asking doctors for meds, it's doctors giving it out like candy. Don't say it ONLY happens in America, because you can't back that up. That is a very sweeping generalization.

4) Don't try to play psychologist while watching TUF, or any television show for that matter. It's one thing to say he is a little off, but you cannot assume that you have some sort of deep understanding of that person and how to help them. You think he needs drugs and a hospital bed, I think he needs a kick in the ass and maybe a few months in jail, then probation. He can work his issues out there, with other criminals. Both of our opinions are just that, opinions, but don't assume that I have a lesser understanding of clinical mental health issues just because I don't see eye to eye with your point of view of the guy. Also, I think your view on addiction is slightly askew. I have worked in bars and clubs for years and I know lots of alcoholics. You know why they are alcoholics? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T STOP DRINKING BOOZE! A LOT of people drink and do drugs for NO reason and end up addicted, that is a fact. Sure, some people may have issues that leads them into addiction, but guess what? EVERYBODY has issues. I know that my view may seem kinda hard nose on this issue, but in that respect I am pretty old school. You are welcome to disagree with me, but I think way too many people use it as an excuse for their transgressions. Life is tough, deal with it.

5) Where did I say I was surprised at his behavior? Why should I care that he acted like an ass on TUF? Being "out of your bloody tree" is not an acceptable excuse for assaulting 3 nurses. We pay tax dollars to have police and build jails so we have a place to put people like Junie when they do things like that. That is where he belongs. That is where I would belong if I did that. That is how life works.

6) Dave, don't question my conviction to helping people. I pray because it is all I can do for some people. I help those that I can and I pray for those who I cannot. That is part of having faith in the Lord. I'm sorry I don't talk to a bunch of fighters online like you do, maybe you could help Junie by writing him a nice letter and offer him some supporting words. Who knows, maybe it will actually make him think?

7) and lastly, you know I don't mind a good debate, and you don't offend me, but I completely understand and personally have no problem with people calling Junie a moron or whatever else they want. The guy acted like an idiot and deserves to be told so. I agree that nobody needs to be overly hateful or just nasty, but there is an acceptable threshold when somebody does something like this.

Last edited by J.B.; 10-12-2009 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Tyburn;73141]1) I beg to differ. I've seen how Europeans treat their employees. Its like slave labour. I've seen place in the US where they are treated much better [/b]

Define "better"

2) Rampage I'm not convinced is ill to begin with...but everyone could see the warning signs with Junie. Yes its everyones responsibility to look out for their fellow man...particularly in America.

No it's not. SPECIFICALLY in America. You make your life ON YOUR OWN. Sure.. we all have family.. and friends.. but, you have to take care of yourself first.. to be worth anything to anyone else.. Though if Obama has it his way.. I will be taking care of those that do not wish to do so for themselves...

But why do you say "particularly in America"... is it because everyone one looks to us to lead the way.. but then wants to bash us when they don'tlike what we do?

3) I think the UFC behind closed doors can do FAR more then just delete a fighter from their stable.

Could they?? maybe.. sure .. but why do they have to??

Multimillion pound Firms who are premiers of their sector can make or break people. They will have contacts all over and I bet they could use the scouts to politically poisen a billion different local shows if they so desired. Besides...someone once told me the Fetittas are Mafia. That means they can do exactly what I said they could do.

Someone once told me that the Queen likes to take peanut butter and .... well.. no matter.. someone once told me.. I guess that's true huh?


4) That only happens in America. In England there is none of this stupidity with citizens self perscribing.

Maybe it should???

You cant "ask your doctor for" anywhere in the whole Earth apart from in the U.S.

It depends on how you "ask". If I tell a doc I am having trouble sleeping...well, in your country, I guess the doc will move in with you to monitior your sleep habits???

So that might be applicable for Americans, but for the rest of the world, you are only given what you need...and you have to wait forever to get that...if you get it at all.

ah.. socialism...or at least pretty close to it..

Do you know that if I had been taken seriously by the SEVEN medical personnel I saw over the course of 6 months then my Anxiety wouldnt have caused my reactive depression!

per you.. that's the fault of everyone else.

I was not taken seriously...it did me untold damage...now rather then one problem, I have two. Junie Browning needs professional medical care...

Or maybe just a little self control...

if that wasnt obvious to you during TUF then your NOT in the 95% of people you think understand mental ill health when it comes to depression and anxiety

dude.. your saying from a TV SHOW.. that he has mental problems... if you were at my house when I was piling on drink after drink.. I had a inferiority complex.. and put under the kinds of pressue that they were under.. and being a total jerk on top of that... I would look like I had mental issues also.. Don't judge much from what you see on TUF.. other than skills you see..and even that is manipulated..

As for being a criminal. People with issues often end up criminals if they dont get the help soon enough.

among other things.. your point?

Do you understand that? noone does drugs or drinks for no reason.

Cause it's "cool'.. marketing.. to "feel good".. those are reasons.

VERY few are sheer addiction...they GET addicted because they are using it to mask SOMETHING...that something needs identity and eradication PROMPTLY

and how do you plan to live if you are policing EVERYONE in a bar, buying a pack of smokes... hell.. you could say that UFC fighters fight due to "issues".. you think getting punched in the face is "fun"..

5) Jail is where you meet other criminals, and where bad things happen to you, whether its short stint or life time.

well.. prison is not a social scene. if you get a bunch of bad guys around other bad guys..they will probably be bad together... OR... if they want to have a different life.. they can work at being better.. where would you put them? You want a sex offender staying at your home for 10-15 years?? what do you do with them?? I say more capital punishment...

COME ON you KNOW Junie was out his bloody tree and down his burrow BEFORE he assulted anyone! you saw him on TUF and now your suprised at his behaviour

not at all

6) NO. I will not quit it. That is EXACTLY the problem with your society without Christian input.
http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/ne...wreply&p=73141

so.. our society is having problems because the Christian religion isn't forced on everyone? there are Christians in jail now for murder.. Guess we should convert the Jews.. mulsims, hindus and such...
Good thing that many Catholic priests are ready to take care of my son...

btw... it's illegal to push a specific religion here.. it's one of our "rights"


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now I am not saying that religion is wrong.. but one of the reasons that God is not in the classroom is because of the First Amendment. Right or wrong.. If I want to worship a cabbage.. it's my right.

There is NO collective responsibility.

There's that socialism again..National Socialism even.. sound familiar?



Sorry if my view offends. I dont mean it personally against you so much, as the fact that this forum has always seemed to me to be about the sort of debates you and I are having now...

When you start picking apart the US.. I get a little offended. Even if the comment isn't directed at me.

and less of the monosylabbic offensive slang...

Monosyllabic


We are not Sodom...and if I see somewhere standards are slipping. I shall make my complaint public

As long as I can return the favor.
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Last edited by Spiritwalker; 10-12-2009 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:39 AM
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[QUOTE=JB Rattlesnake;73144]I know we have talked about the NBA and the NFL before Spirit, and I agree that the leagues need to be tough on guys who commit crimes, but it's also a different situation in those leagues. Those leagues have players unions and a lot more politics than what the UFC has.

Well.. when the UFC has as many fighters as the NFL or NBA has players... I am sure they will have more thugs...



As I said, "character" is very important, and there are athletes in every sport that have less than favorable character. The biggest difference in this situation is just the nature of MMA. When you have a UFC fighter assault 3 nurses and tell the hospital staff he will rape their families, and another one running from the cops and basically playing an IRL version of GTA 4, it's not gonna help the "good name" (irony) of a sport where guys lock themselves in a cage and beat themselves into a bloody mess. When the players in other sports get into trouble, violent or otherwise, it rarely is turned back on the sport because sports like football, basketball, and baseball are already well established in the mainstream.

You, I, and all the other real MMA fans know that there are some good, honorable, hard-working athletes in this sport, such as Matt Hughes.



Well said
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake View Post
1) This has nothing to with America vs Europe. No doubt, our cultures are different, but this situation has nothing to do with problems with European Labor Laws.

2) There is no evidence, that I know of, that proves the Fertita brothers are involved in organized crime. Also, it's widely known that the reach of the Italian mafia in Las Vegas has greatly depleted from what it once was. Not to say it's entirely dead, but it's almost there. Even if it is true, they would not waste their time on a person like Junie Browning.

3) Sure, maybe that don't happen across the pond, but it does happen here. It's not just people asking doctors for meds, it's doctors giving it out like candy. Don't say it ONLY happens in America, because you can't back that up. That is a very sweeping generalization.

4) Don't try to play psychologist while watching TUF, or any television show for that matter. It's one thing to say he is a little off, but you cannot assume that you have some sort of deep understanding of that person and how to help them. You think he needs drugs and a hospital bed, I think he needs a kick in the ass and maybe a few months in jail, then probation. He can work his issues out there, with other criminals. Both of our opinions are just that, opinions, but don't assume that I have a lesser understanding of clinical mental health issues just because I don't see eye to eye with your point of view of the guy. Also, I think your view on addiction is slightly askew. I have worked in bars and clubs for years and I know lots of alcoholics. You know why they are alcoholics? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T STOP DRINKING BOOZE! A LOT of people drink and do drugs for NO reason and end up addicted, that is a fact. Sure, some people may have issues that leads them into addiction, but guess what? EVERYBODY has issues. I know that my view may seem kinda hard nose on this issue, but in that respect I am pretty old school. You are welcome to disagree with me, but I think way too many people use it as an excuse for their transgressions. Life is tough, deal with it.

5) Where did I say I was surprised at his behavior? Why should I care that he acted like an ass on TUF? Being "out of your bloody tree" is not an acceptable excuse for assaulting 3 nurses. We pay tax dollars to have police and build jails so we have a place to put people like Junie when they do things like that. That is where he belongs. That is where I would belong if I did that. That is how life works.

6) Dave, don't question my conviction to helping people. I pray because it is all I can do for some people. I help those that I can and I pray for those who I cannot. That is part of having faith in the Lord. I'm sorry I don't talk to a bunch of fighters online like you do, maybe you could help Junie by writing him a nice letter and offer him some supporting words. Who knows, maybe it will actually make him think?

7) and lastly, you know I don't mind a good debate, and you don't offend me, but I completely understand and personally have no problem with people calling Junie a moron or whatever else they want. The guy acted like an idiot and deserves to be told so. I agree that nobody needs to be overly hateful or just nasty, but there is an acceptable threshold when somebody does something like this.
1) i respectfully wholeheartedly dissagree.

2) I didnt say organised Crime. I said Mafia...and thats just what someone else told me

3) You'd be lucky to get the meds you need in England. I dont think you realize how vastly different our medical procedures are. Its not really a generalization. There are ZERO marketting of drugs in England, its illegal for that to happen. Also, doctors dont have the same pressure from drugs firms that they do in the US to market/sell products to get endorsements or help from those drug companies.

I take real exception to the way your Country manages Health Care. You know the NHS isnt perfect, but we simply dont have this problem in large ammounts....and we dont have self-perscription Period.

4) really? You'd be amazed at how accurate I can be with a little bit of research. I remember esposing all kinds of things about Jens Pulver based on what i'd seen, and read. Only to have it more or less confirmed in person when we met.

People with mental health issues, or deep psyches are easily identifiable to trained people. Whilst I'm not qualified as a Psychologist, I have qualifications in it....I also have experience of mental health issues. I think I know what I'm talking about more often then you are giving me credit for it

No, not everyone has "issues" its as simple as that. You have no idea how hard life can be for someone with mental ill health unless you've suffered it yourself...and a close friend or familiy member is not good enough. If you've ever been to the edge, then you would understand, if you havent then GOOD, I hope its a place you NEVER find yourself. But there are those of us who have been to that place, and its not something that the vast majority of people will EVER have to deal with. thats just truth.

4) do you know that in proportion to the rest of the world, America has one of the lowest populations of Citizens, and yet somehow has one of the highest percentages of its population in prison. The problem with your justice system is its manned by hawks actively looking for would-be criminals. when you say assult...then I expect you to mean someone got cuts, bruises, broken bones, possibly stabbed...THATS an assult. Lashing out at someone because they are trying to unlawfully detain you, unless you cause injury, is not worthey of anything more then a reprimand. Heavens above...they would jail you in the states for raising your hand to a customs official

...and I've experienced myself something of this I might add. If you think you live in a free society, I suggest you go to your nearest mall and get out a camera and see what happens. Pay GREAT attention to what I say in the last two moments of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t12ZBMTg0Qo

6) I'm not talking about what you can do. I'm talking about your attitude. Can you or I help Junie? probably not. Should we hope he finds help rather then condemn him. ABSOLUTELY...and thats where you and I differ completely isnt it. Anyone would think he murdered someone...ohh but when that happens, the same people are suddenly "innocent til proven guilty...lets wait for the facts"

7) We wont have threads that are single cuss words on this forum. Remember where we are. This is NOT sherdog. We can debate like this, and I thank you for it...but as a Moderator, if I see something I think is distasteful and dissapointing. Count on me to call you or anyone else up on it, online, or face to face...I have no shame
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:48 PM
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[QUOTE=Spiritwalker;73168]

Define "better"


People seemed to be genuinely nice and friendly to each other in the working environment. The people seemed to enjoy their jobs and thus be happy and take pride in it.

No it's not. SPECIFICALLY in America. You make your life ON YOUR OWN.

YES Specifically in America. Once again you only seem to be biting ONE half of the Apple. America has two sides to this coin. On the one hand it is about the fact that everyone has the possibility to reach their becoming and to make a life for themselves as independants. BUT America is also grounded on Christianity, which gives a counter to that. The ideal would be ballence. Its a Beautiful System, truely and uttterly remarkable....but I really fear America is losing the Christian Influence...which would leave her unballenced...and then she would lose what she has that we dont have. If you cant understand that you should try living outside of the US...see what a secular community is like...because I NEVER saw a Secular community in America on my Travel. The worst bit was the Washington DC tour....why...coz it was made up of European Tourists!!!!

But why do you say "particularly in America"... is it because everyone one looks to us to lead the way.. but then wants to bash us when they don'tlike what we do?


No its because your forefathers made PERFECTLY clear what your role was...oh and incidently your role even in your isolationist Period, was supposed to be about releaving the lands of Tyrany. Have you been to Washington DC? Have you seen some of the Quotes on your memorials from Freedom Plaza? or from the War Memorials?? This has nothing to do with the rest of the world, or how America is viewed...this is about what America is. I sware...I spend my life explaining what Americans should already know...perhaps you cant see it because you havent experienced the lack of it. You dont know how bad things can get because you live in a land of milk and honey already. You cant see your self objectively because you are subjectively inside what you are trying to define.


Someone once told me that the Queen likes to take peanut butter and .... well.. no matter.. someone once told me.. I guess that's true huh?
Possibly. HM The Queen is not as stuck up as she appears en-ceremony. Prince Charles and Lord Mountbatton (Her Son and Her Husband) both run food companies that involve jams, and maramaldes, and biscuits...why not peanut butter also??

4) That only happens in America. In England there is none of this stupidity with citizens self perscribing.

Maybe it should???

NO, it shouldnt. People with no medical knowledge should not be telling doctors to give them pills because a money grabbing advertising campaign by a drugs firm for the sole purpose of greedy capitalism told them to! absolutely NOT


You cant "ask your doctor for" anywhere in the whole Earth apart from in the U.S.

It depends on how you "ask". If I tell a doc I am having trouble sleeping...well, in your country, I guess the doc will move in with you to monitior your sleep habits???

The Doctor most likely would suggest you go to the pharmacy and buy NON-PERSCRIPTION sleeping pills. Only if they dont work will he run tests. He might enquire about your diet and pass you to a nutritionist. but you wouldnt go to the doctor unless you were not sleeping so bad that you were suffering from sleep deprivation. Its quite common not to see the doctor for YEARS in the country...we dont run to them every time we sneeze...by the time you've cleared a waiting list...you've recovered naturally from your cold.

So that might be applicable for Americans, but for the rest of the world, you are only given what you need...and you have to wait forever to get that...if you get it at all.

ah.. socialism...or at least pretty close to it..


Not Socialism at all. This is Centrism. Socialism your life is not worth anything. The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few...and in china hundreds will needlessly suffer and die for the good of the collective population. THAT is socialism on a large scale.

Do you know that if I had been taken seriously by the SEVEN medical personnel I saw over the course of 6 months then my Anxiety wouldnt have caused my reactive depression!

per you.. that's the fault of everyone else.

Of course its the fault of everyone else. I TOLD them I was unwell, but they didnt believe me until a secondary illness cropt up that was undeniable. I never received an apology. They dont care.

I was not taken seriously...it did me untold damage...now rather then one problem, I have two. Junie Browning needs professional medical care...

Or maybe just a little self control...

He needs both.

if that wasnt obvious to you during TUF then your NOT in the 95% of people you think understand mental ill health when it comes to depression and anxiety

dude.. your saying from a TV SHOW.. that he has mental problems... if you were at my house when I was piling on drink after drink.. I had a inferiority complex.. and put under the kinds of pressue that they were under.. and being a total jerk on top of that... I would look like I had mental issues also.. Don't judge much from what you see on TUF.. other than skills you see..and even that is manipulated..


You think Junie Browning has perfect mental Health???

As for being a criminal. People with issues often end up criminals if they dont get the help soon enough.

among other things.. your point?


Help them before they become criminals, its not rocket science!


you could say that UFC fighters fight due to "issues".. you think getting punched in the face is "fun"..


Alot do. Checked out the childhoods of some of these men?


btw... it's illegal to push a specific religion here.. it's one of our "rights"

No. Its illegal to push a specific religion on people because it was assumed by your founders that they would all be Christian, and have Freedom under GOD to profess that. CONTEXT! some of your interpretations of the Constitution are...so...bizzare

There is no need for a State Church if all are christians, and it stops the Church being used as a wrong tool for power or control. Likewise, ANY denomination should have the right to worship freely...you know, Catholics and Protestants...THAT is what the freedom of religion in your country is about if you understand who your founders were...and more importantly where they had come from. This was never about allowing Islam to be equal to Christianity...it was about disabling a form of monarchic rule that would burn Catholics at the stake for not worshiping in the same manner as the Protestants. This is a counter-culture against the zig-zag monarchs of the Reformation. A fact most Americans dont understand.

Now, if you have wrongly interpreted that to mean that all religions are equal and allowed...well...your founders will roll in their graves, because that was NOT Washingtons view...I very much doubt it was Lincolns view either. Later Presidents actually dont count

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now I am not saying that religion is wrong.. but one of the reasons that God is not in the classroom is because of the First Amendment. Right or wrong.. If I want to worship a cabbage.. it's my right.

Again...out of context. They mean a denomination of Christianity, when they speak about an establishment of religion.


Sorry if my view offends. I dont mean it personally against you so much, as the fact that this forum has always seemed to me to be about the sort of debates you and I are having now...

When you start picking apart the US.. I get a little offended. Even if the comment isn't directed at me.


When you dont adhere to what America is according to its own founders THAT offends me

We are not Sodom...and if I see somewhere standards are slipping. I shall make my complaint public

As long as I can return the favor.

bring it on
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