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  #21  
Old 09-10-2009, 04:25 PM
Buzzard
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
So, since the government already intrudes too much into the lives of its citizens, then we should just allow them to intrude even more? I'm sorry if I don't understand the logic there.
That's not what I said.

What do we do with the problem of people sticking their debt onto the public when they can't afford health care but use facilities and can't pay for it? As it is, I pay for it now in increased premiums and probably through other ways in which I am not aware.

We all realize that there is a problem, but what is the solution to it?

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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
I do agree that it is a problem for people who don't pay taxes to leech off of taxpayers whenever they get sick or injured; but the solution is not to put us all under the thumb of the federal government. We first need to get rid of this false notion that every American is somehow entitled to healthcare. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that even implies that. Just like the lie that every American deserves to own their own home or has the right to a college education. These are not basic human rights guaranteed by the Constitution, thus the government shouldn't be handing them out like candy and we, as free citizens, shouldn't be demanding these things from the government.
I think that there are some arguments that are somewhat valid stating that health-care is something of a right. I can also understand the arguments against it. What is the middle ground? The link below and the opinions offered there is provided so I don't have to retype the arguments for or against.

http://eternalhope.blog-city.com/hea...nstitution.htm

I've really have never heard of people saying that a college education is a right nor owning a home. There may be people who have expressed it, but I don't think that that is a majority opinion. I could be wrong in my opinion, and am open to differing ideas.
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  #22  
Old 09-10-2009, 07:06 PM
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NateR NateR is offline
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Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
That's not what I said.

What do we do with the problem of people sticking their debt onto the public when they can't afford health care but use facilities and can't pay for it? As it is, I pay for it now in increased premiums and probably through other ways in which I am not aware.

We all realize that there is a problem, but what is the solution to it?
Well, medical insurance is not the solution, it is actually the root of the problem. So, get rid of the insurance companies and you can then create a true, free-market medical system.

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Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
I think that there are some arguments that are somewhat valid stating that health-care is something of a right. I can also understand the arguments against it. What is the middle ground? The link below and the opinions offered there is provided so I don't have to retype the arguments for or against.

http://eternalhope.blog-city.com/hea...nstitution.htm
Well, he makes a good point about how rights not specifically mentioned in the Constitution are to be granted to the people by default, not to the government to ration out to the people. Which would be another great argument against nationalized healthcare.

But I don't like his anti-free-market spin on the whole thing. Using that logic, you could also say that it's "un-American" for stores to charge for food because that means that people who don't have money can't afford to eat. Thus those with money are more equal than those without money when it comes to access to food.

Obviously, it doesn't work that way, food and water are more of a necessity to life than healthcare, but those are completely run by the free market in America and that means that there is low cost food that is available to everyone. Well, everyone with money, but there are enough charity organizations and just plain generous people out there willing to take up that slack (I'm speaking from experience on this since I grew up in poverty).
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  #23  
Old 09-10-2009, 07:28 PM
Chuck
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Well, medical insurance is not the solution, it is actually the root of the problem.
Do you have time to expand on this one?
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  #24  
Old 09-10-2009, 07:40 PM
Crisco
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Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
Do you have time to expand on this one?
I find that some approaches to government will work fairly well in the rural areas but much worse in cities.


As long as Medical care is expensive Insurance will be needed.

If someone can get the flu without bankrupting their family from a visit to the hospital I'm all for it.

I would much rather pay for someone to see a doctor in their time of need then for his family to go homeless.

I have no problem with taxes being used to help people aslong as it's people who deserve it. It's kind of like giving to charity to a degree.

I donate whenever possible I even give bigger tips to the slower restuarants I go too because I know times are hard on people and I'm blessed enough to be ok.

Specialized goverment healthcare facilities would be a good idea. Kind of like public defenders for criminals who cant afford lawyers.

If you cant afford a good doctor you get the government provided one.
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  #25  
Old 09-10-2009, 08:03 PM
matthughesfan21
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Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
Do you have time to expand on this one?
he could mean that because of health insurance, health costs are ridiculously high, like 50 bucks for ace wrap, gimme a break

i could be wrong about his meaning though haha
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  #26  
Old 09-10-2009, 08:06 PM
matthughesfan21
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
So, since the government already intrudes too much into the lives of its citizens, then we should just allow them to intrude even more? I'm sorry if I don't understand the logic there.

I do agree that it is a problem for people who don't pay taxes to leech off of taxpayers whenever they get sick or injured; but the solution is not to put us all under the thumb of the federal government. We first need to get rid of this false notion that every American is somehow entitled to healthcare. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that even implies that. Just like the lie that every American deserves to own their own home or has the right to a college education. These are not basic human rights guaranteed by the Constitution, thus the government shouldn't be handing them out like candy and we, as free citizens, shouldn't be demanding these things from the government.
I agree with everything you said, but i'm not sure how valid your argument is to today's society...I'm not saying to do away with the constitution, but we are living in a totally different world then the constitution writers lived in, they didn't have hospitals, colleges weren't as popular, etc....Things are much different and evolved now, but if new things do come up, they should be made amendments if they are the best for the country
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  #27  
Old 09-10-2009, 08:13 PM
Chris F
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A huge cost factor and reason for high prices is the fact that many use the ER for a tooth acne and then skip on their bill. Also thousands of illegals who use our health care system and also skip on their bill since most hospitals must treat regardless of ability to pay. In Springfield the local urgent cares bound together and a person could see the doctor for 35.00 this even included x-rays and simple blood test. So the ER's were not used and insurance rates int hat area are much more affordable then where I am at now. When I had cancer I was w/o insurance for some of it and the various doctor worked out great payment plans and cash discounts. I have yet to find that here. So I think NateR has it right when he alludes to insurance being a huge part of the problem.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2009, 02:31 AM
bradwright
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
Well, medical insurance is not the solution, it is actually the root of the problem. So, get rid of the insurance companies and you can then create a true, free-market medical system.



Well, he makes a good point about how rights not specifically mentioned in the Constitution are to be granted to the people by default, not to the government to ration out to the people. Which would be another great argument against nationalized healthcare.

But I don't like his anti-free-market spin on the whole thing. Using that logic, you could also say that it's "un-American" for stores to charge for food because that means that people who don't have money can't afford to eat. Thus those with money are more equal than those without money when it comes to access to food.

Obviously, it doesn't work that way, food and water are more of a necessity to life than healthcare, but those are completely run by the free market in America and that means that there is low cost food that is available to everyone. Well, everyone with money, but there are enough charity organizations and just plain generous people out there willing to take up that slack (I'm speaking from experience on this since I grew up in poverty).
actually NateR i have to disagree with you on this one...GREED is the root of the problem...medical insurance is just one of the vehicles that greedy people use.
so its simple really...just eliminate greed and you solve a good portion of the worlds problems.
seems simple enough to me.
but then again no one ever acussed me of being very smart.
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  #29  
Old 09-11-2009, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bradwright View Post
actually NateR i have to disagree with you on this one...GREED is the root of the problem...medical insurance is just one of the vehicles that greedy people use.
so its simple really...just eliminate greed and you solve a good portion of the worlds problems.
seems simple enough to me.
but then again no one ever acussed me of being very smart.
I agree with you 100% that greed is the root of the problem.
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  #30  
Old 09-11-2009, 03:27 AM
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Neezar Neezar is offline
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Let me tell you a story.


Ms Medicare goes to the doctor with a hurt leg from a fall. Doc xrays it, nothing is broken, gives her pain meds, and sends her on her way. The doctor bills for an office visit and an xray of $100.00 - 80 for xray and 20 for office visit. (Cheap, I know but easier numbers to work with. And this doctor is still young and wants to do the right thing and not just eat people up with medical costs.You will get the point hopefully.) Well, medicare decides that he should only get $30.00. Well, the xray actually cost him $60.00. And then he gets nothing for his time and overhead costs. Well, he is like wtf . Who at medicare decided that 30.00 would/should cover this cost. Well Doc, it is a panel led by a woman who has over 30 years medical experience. 15-20 years teaching at a college and 10 heading a political/medical affair. She had NEVER had her hands in on actual patient care and has NO clue about running an office or the costs*. But she has the job and there is nothing you can do about it. Okay, so Doc is out $50.00. Now, in comes Mr BC/BS who fell and twisted his ankle. The doc xrays, nothing broken, and sends him home with meds and an ice pack. Now come billing time he knows that BC/BS will pay about 50 percent of what he bills out. So, he bills $180 for the xray and $80 for an office visit. That way he gets paid $90 for the xray. This pays for his $60.00 and picks up the $30.00 that medicare wouldn't pay. He gets $40 on the office visit which covers Mr BC/BS and Ms Medicare. Now at least he can make ends meet with his overhead.

Moral of the story: The gov't is as much to blame in jacked up health care prices as anyone.
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