Go Back   Matt-Hughes.com Official Forums > General Discussions > The Woodshed

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:07 AM
medic92
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
ohh thats not to bad...except...the indivisible bit...erm...50 states...and two flags (Texas being the other one) Im suprised you dont have Islamists up in arms about the word "GOD" in it.

No...we're fine with that and the flag.

We are not fine with the Obama photo
Various atheist groups have been fighting for years to have the "under God" part taken out of the pledge, and they've been trying to get in banned under the phantom "separation of church and state" from the Constitution.

If I'm not mistaken, the "under God" portion of the pledge was actually added to the original pledge in 1956, but I can't be positive off the top of my head.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:12 AM
Tyburn's Avatar
Tyburn Tyburn is offline
Angry @ Injustice!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Posts: 16,982
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medic92
If I'm not mistaken, the "under God" portion of the pledge was actually added to the original pledge in 1956, but I can't be positive off the top of my head.


What? dont you mean 1756 or something
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:16 AM
medic92
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Oh well, I was close.

From "The Pledge of Allegiance - A Short History" (http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm)

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:26 AM
NateR's Avatar
NateR NateR is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medic92
Various atheist groups have been fighting for years to have the "under God" part taken out of the pledge, and they've been trying to get in banned under the phantom "separation of church and state" from the Constitution.

If I'm not mistaken, the "under God" portion of the pledge was actually added to the original pledge in 1956, but I can't be positive off the top of my head.
Yes, "under GOD" was added in the 1950s to help define our war against Communism, since Communist governments at the time embraced atheism and sought to outlaw religion entirely. Hence the common term, "those GODless Communists!"

I definitely don't believe it needs to be removed. Since those two words have been added to our Pledge of Allegiance, America has enjoy a period known as "the Golden Age of Capitalism" and we survived the Cold War and emerged as the lone World Power on the planet. Sure things aren't great now, but the last thing you want to do is abandon GOD during a tough time.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:40 AM
Tyburn's Avatar
Tyburn Tyburn is offline
Angry @ Injustice!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Posts: 16,982
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
Yes, "under GOD" was added in the 1950s to help define our war against Communism, since Communist governments at the time embraced atheism and sought to outlaw religion entirely. Hence the common term, "those GODless Communists!"

I definitely don't believe it needs to be removed. Since those two words have been added to our Pledge of Allegiance, America has enjoy a period known as "the Golden Age of Capitalism" and we survived the Cold War and emerged as the lone World Power on the planet. Sure things aren't great now, but the last thing you want to do is abandon GOD during a tough time.
there is always something new to learn about America from these Forums!

I think you are all fantastic

Even you Nathan
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:42 AM
medic92
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
Sure things aren't great now, but the last thing you want to do is abandon GOD during a tough time.
I've never run the numbers, but I'm almost positive if you ran the stats, you'd find that our biggest troubles with school shootings and other juvenile crime rates started going up shortly after the removal of the Ten Commandments from school and the Roe vs. Wade decision. Morality and respect for human life started going downhill right around the early to mid-70's and I think a correlation can be drawn between those two events and the various troubles we've had with kids these days.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-09-2009, 01:00 AM
Tyburn's Avatar
Tyburn Tyburn is offline
Angry @ Injustice!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Posts: 16,982
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medic92
I've never run the numbers, but I'm almost positive if you ran the stats, you'd find that our biggest troubles with school shootings and other juvenile crime rates started going up shortly after the removal of the Ten Commandments from school and the Roe vs. Wade decision. Morality and respect for human life started going downhill right around the early to mid-70's and I think a correlation can be drawn between those two events and the various troubles we've had with kids these days.
I'm not that Superstitious...however, the 1960-present day showed a shift in whats known as "Zeitgeist" and the birth of Post-Modernity. Post-Modernity believes in something called Moral Relativity and denies something called Absolute Truth. Zeitgeist is German for Spirit of the Time, what it means, to use...I think a Goffman phrase...but could be another Post-Modernist Philosopher...Zeitgeists are seasons within something known as "The Grande Narrative" Something about Human progression, and the continual cycles of political evolution.

It was something we touched on briefly in my degree...I wasnt much cop at it to be fair....the problem with Post-Modernity is it says "anything goes" therefore people end up more distressed because they are overwhelmed by choices and possiblities, and there is no guide to what should and shouldnt happen. Its bollox...but alot of people caught it after the second world war...for three reasons, first, in Europe a whole generation of men had been wiped from the face of the Earth...who was left to bring up the kids? The Women who were doing what? breaking the taboos and going to work, and learning to vote, breaking the stereotype of what a victorian woman was. Thirdly, it was a reaction to the end of rationing after the war, ushering in a different age of music, and a load of hippies to boot. Whilst the Novelty had worn off by the 80s...the fragmented society still existed...THATS whats responsible for the removal of the ten commandments, and whats responsible for the rise in crime, it effects everything negatively IMHO.

We need to go back to Ancient Times, The Classical had two many gods, the dark ages had too much bloodshed, the middleages had to much dogma, the Ren was just...queer, the Enlightenment was too ridgid, Modernism was too fleeting and equaly vulgar, and post-modernity is empty.

I say bring back the Devine Right of Kingship...but then I would, I live under a monarch who Believes, and so do I, that she was chosen and annointed by GOD to serve her people....Her Husband aint to well at present...I mean, really aint to well...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-09-2009, 01:06 AM
Spiritwalker's Avatar
Spiritwalker Spiritwalker is offline
Matt-4; GJJ Black Belts-0
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Gastonia NC
Posts: 4,339
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
You'll Excuse Germany, if they dont feel quite the same way. I can cope with a flag, its an object, It has no meaning beyond that which is put into it...I dont like the idea of doing it to a person, people do things, they, unlike objects are dangerous and fallable. There is a very fine line between Patriotism and Nationalism.
Well.. You know it's not like Germany has anything to be ashamed of...

And our flag is not just an object. It's an idea and an ideal.

The bars reprsent the orginal 13 colonies, the starred blue canton reprsent the states and is also called the "union". Displaying only the stared canton can be called the Union Jack.

Most people in the states know the stars represent the states, but less than 1 in 10 know what the bars are for.

One of the few flag traditions that I have been happy that has changed is the "wearing of the flag". I personally view that as love and support for my country. I have a jacket from over 20 years ago that I painted an iron cross on, but then used the flag... "think read white and blue colored iron cross"... most people I knew hated it.. but a few knew.. and the few that asked.. I told them.. then they understood.



Quote:

I had no idea you took some kinda vow everyday...may I enquire as to what exactly that entails...
Think this...
"I believe in the United States of America, as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principals of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.” -William Tyler Page
__________________
It is because you chose to get on the mat that makes you the winner. Think about how many people are not on that mat right now. - Luis Sucuri Togno
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-09-2009, 01:26 AM
Tyburn's Avatar
Tyburn Tyburn is offline
Angry @ Injustice!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Posts: 16,982
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritwalker
1) Well.. You know it's not like Germany has anything to be ashamed of...

2)And our flag is not just an object. It's an idea and an ideal.

The bars reprsent the orginal 13 colonies, the starred blue canton reprsent the states and is also called the "union". Displaying only the stared canton can be called the Union Jack.

Most people in the states know the stars represent the states, but less than 1 in 10 know what the bars are for.

3) One of the few flag traditions that I have been happy that has changed is the "wearing of the flag". I personally view that as love and support for my country. I have a jacket from over 20 years ago that I painted an iron cross on, but then used the flag... "think read white and blue colored iron cross"... most people I knew hated it.. but a few knew.. and the few that asked.. I told them.. then they understood.





4) Think this...
"I believe in the United States of America, as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principals of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.” -William Tyler Page
1) my point is, careful you dont do the same. The German people was oppressed, in depression and lulled into a flase sense of security by a fantastic public speaker, who made a shed load of promises he had no intention of keeping, and a shed load of others that he expressed in a vastly different way to what the people thought. You can understand why that country, and the rest of Europe who received first hand the consequences are less patriotic then yourselves...they know where it can lead under the wrong circumstances

cant say I'm pleased by the nature of this thread...the big Obama poster next to the flag, the children addressing a Human rather then an inanimate object to pledge their alligience to. You know, when your cities have either been raised to the ground by an invasion, or been razed by nights of bombing raids, you would understand the caution the rest of the world has over such things as Nationalism of another country...you didnt like it when the Soviets went Nationalistic did you...at least they werent your next door geographical neighbours...

2) Your flag is an object. Its whats known as a symbolic token, a token is a signpost that points to something other then itself. In your case the deals....which I hasten to add, different Americans will view differently. The flag in itself has no meaning, but the meaning you put in it. This is the same with any physical token, the reason being we can look at the same flag and have it represent different things. Ergo the flag itself carries no meaning, we project the meaning onto it. Even it the author creates it with a meaning, those meanings can be perverted through time

3) your flag came with a little ettiquette guide as to what to do and what not to do. You are NOT supposed to use your flag as an item of clothing. But then you are not supposed to stick stuff to it either, like I have. Shockingly, you must not throw away tatty ones, you have to burn them in a ritual ceremony.

4) I dont have a problem with that, until you either decide to make the world in your image, or to shun other nations that do not adhere to that. Patriotism is fine...but Nationalism is taking that love and imposing it on others or judging others by that standard. As soon as you act on the feeling that you are superior or better, then you move from Patriotism into Nationalism...and you've got to be VERY careful when you do that outside of your own soverignty. The United States of America..does not equate to anything beyond those fifty states and its realms and territories...others may not thank you for helping them, nor like you for judgeing them.

Personally, I love Americans, and I do believe that America has got it right. I do believe that its the last true Vestige of Christondom outside of Rome, I do believe that Americans and everything in America is bigger and better. I love them because they still believe in something that is sacred. Whilst the rest of the world abandoned that. TRUE post-Modernity hasnt really settled into America yet. Thats a GOOD thing. American hospitality is like nothing else on Earth, and whilst culturally confident, Americans when understood properly arent arrogant, they just have an amazing pool of confidence, self believef and ideology. But I am unusual to think this where I come from. People have in the past told me I show positive racisim towards Americans... but honnest to GOD, I aint making it up, in my experience Americans are bigger and better, and in my experience things in America are larger...I prooved this when I bought a bottle of cola in the US to find it had a LARGER amount of cola in it
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-09-2009, 02:19 AM
rockdawg21's Avatar
rockdawg21 rockdawg21 is offline
I'm kind of a big deal
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 5,584
Default

Just incase, anybody is curious:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Pledge
Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible.
The "one state under God" was added June 15, 2007.

It's kinda funny. In Missouri, we just said the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag then went on with our business. I sell library books to public schools and the first time I was in a school during the POA, I sat down afterward, then realized everybody was standing saying the POA to the TX state flag as well. They also have a "moment of silence" after these as well. Some moments of silence are observed for a few seconds, other schools for even a minute, some people just sit down, lol
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.