A Jewish response to Obama's Cairo speech

[NateR]

I was looking for some videos of Rabbi Chaim Richman because I used to watch this guy on TV all the time when I lived in New Mexico. He's an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel and he also believes that Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMaschiach) is the Messiah.

I haven't seen anything from him recently, but I think he has a great message here and an excellent counterpoint to the lies and revisionist history that Obama presented in his speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyBZhTaf1oU

[Vizion]

Obama sounds almost exactly like the antichrist.

He's just plain evil.

and..

he has no clue who he is dealing with.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

He's an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel and he also believes that Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMaschiach) is the Messiah.

You cant be Both.

The thing which makes an Orthodox Jew, Orthodox and not Messianic is their disbelief that Christ was the Messiah. If he believes, therefore he is Messianic

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

You cant be Both.

The thing which makes an Orthodox Jew, Orthodox and not Messianic is their disbelief that Christ was the Messiah. If he believes, therefore he is Messianic

I think he would disagree with that and his reasoning would probably be that it's the "Orthodox Jews" who deny Christ that should not be referred to as "orthodox."

Now, according to the world's standards of labeling and categorization, then you're right, Orthodox Jews don't typically accept Christ as the Messiah. However, GOD never wanted His people to deny Him, so in a way, the "orthodox" Jewish religion actually died out in 70 AD, when they completely rejected Jesus and cut off all contact with Christ's followers. It was then replaced with something else that was Judaism in name only.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

I think he would disagree with that and his reasoning would probably be that it's the "Orthodox Jews" who deny Christ that should not be referred to as "orthodox."

Now, according to the world's standards of labeling and categorization, then you're right, Orthodox Jews don't typically accept Christ as the Messiah. However, GOD never wanted His people to deny Him, so in a way, the "orthodox" Jewish religion actually died out in 70 AD, when they completely rejected Jesus and cut off all contact with Christ's followers. It was then replaced with something else that was Judaism in name only.

Yes you could argue that. But you would then be saying that there is no difference between Orthodox Judaism and Christianity at all....because you would say that Orthodox Jew were meant to receive the extra revelation about Christ.

The difficulty in that arguement is that if GOD had meant for the Jews to know this...then they would not have Crucfied him to begin with, and thus there would be no salvation. I essence, Christ Counted on the Jews Denying him. Whether he made it happen through spiritual blindness...or whether he just knew the decisions they would make and thus only needed to appear at a specific point in time, is debateable.

Has anyone put that to your friend. I'd be VERY interested to hear what he has to say about that...because its the only reason why I dont completely aggree with him.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Yes you could argue that. But you would then be saying that there is no difference between Orthodox Judaism and Christianity at all....because you would say that Orthodox Jew were meant to receive the extra revelation about Christ.

The difficulty in that arguement is that if GOD had meant for the Jews to know this...then they would not have Crucfied him to begin with, and thus there would be no salvation. I essence, Christ Counted on the Jews Denying him. Whether he made it happen through spiritual blindness...or whether he just knew the decisions they would make and thus only needed to appear at a specific point in time, is debateable.

Has anyone put that to your friend. I'd be VERY interested to hear what he has to say about that...because its the only reason why I dont completely aggree with him.

Well, I don't believe that the Jews of Jesus' day were truly orthodox. They were more legalistic than orthodox. Which means they loaded down GOD's Law with so many extra man-made laws that they had essentially written a whole new religion.

Also the Bible is clear that Israel's "blindness" toward Jesus the Messiah was intentional. Jesus deliberately spoke in parables to conceal his identity and, when someone did recognize him as the Messiah, Jesus told them to keep it quiet and not spread the word around. However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus had upwards of 100,000 followers in Jerusalem. The numbers that were loyal to the Pharisees were more like 6000. It was because the Pharisees were so heavily outnumbered that they only made their moves under the cover of darkness.

It also doesn't change the fact that Jesus came to the "Jew first" and then to the Gentiles. Also, the vast majority of Jesus' followers in the earliest days were Jewish and they didn't strike out and build their own churches. They worshipped right alongside their non-believing Jewish bretheren inside the Temple.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Well, I don't believe that the Jews of Jesus' day were truly orthodox. They were more legalistic than orthodox. Which means they loaded down GOD's Law with so many extra man-made laws that they had essentially written a whole new religion.

Also the Bible is clear that Israel's "blindness" toward Jesus the Messiah was intentional. Jesus deliberately spoke in parables to conceal his identity and, when someone did recognize him as the Messiah, Jesus told them to keep it quiet and not spread the word around. However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus had upwards of 100,000 followers in Jerusalem. The numbers that were loyal to the Pharisees were more like 6000. It was because the Pharisees were so heavily outnumbered that they only made their moves under the cover of darkness.

It also doesn't change the fact that Jesus came to the "Jew first" and then to the Gentiles. Also, the vast majority of Jesus' followers in the earliest days were Jewish and they didn't strike out and build their own churches. They worshipped right alongside their non-believing Jewish bretheren inside the Temple.

Well then when did the Orthodox Jew dissapear? Are you saying the Orthodox Jew died out in the Time Between Testaments? This would mean that when Christ came, the Jews of that Day would in essence not really be Jews except for name. It would also free them from having to realize that extra bit of Revelation since they were not orthodox even if they called themselves.

That Argument would work. But I would need to know abit more about the time between Testaments to have in my mind where the Orthodox Jews went...or rather, when, they went.

[VCURamFan]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Well then when did the Orthodox Jew dissapear? Are you saying the Orthodox Jew died out in the Time Between Testaments? This would mean that when Christ came, the Jews of that Day would in essence not really be Jews except for name. It would also free them from having to realize that extra bit of Revelation since they were not orthodox even if they called themselves.

That Argument would work. But I would need to know abit more about the time between Testaments to have in my mind where the Orthodox Jews went...or rather, when, they went.

Well, there's about 400yrs (right Nate?) between the end of Malachi & the beginning of the gospels & it's during that time that Israel is conquered by the Romans. In response to the religious & cultural pluralism of Roman culture, the Jews tended to try & pull together to preserve their cultural heritage. Unfortunately, as often happens with sinful, fallen man, they took it too far to the extreme & the Pharisees arose. They hoped that by buffering the Law with hundreds of new laws, they would protect themselves from even getting close the sinning. It began as "Well, the Law says not to do X, and to protect myself, I'm not even going to do W. That way, I'll never get close enough to X to be tempted into sin." Since that seemed like a good idea, they eventually W with V, V with U & U with T. Now instead of the Law pointing them to God, the law was pointing them to how amazing a Jew they were for doing all this great work to be holy. It became works- and man-centered, as opposed to God-centered.

Basically, there's probably not a hard & fast date that can be set as the "Death of Jewish Orthodoxy" that you're looking for, but it certainly happened (as I understand it) during the Silence.

Originally Posted by NateR

Well, I don't believe that the Jews of Jesus' day were truly orthodox. They were more legalistic than orthodox. Which means they loaded down GOD's Law with so many extra man-made laws that they had essentially written a whole new religion.

Also the Bible is clear that Israel's "blindness" toward Jesus the Messiah was intentional. Jesus deliberately spoke in parables to conceal his identity and, when someone did recognize him as the Messiah, Jesus told them to keep it quiet and not spread the word around. However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus had upwards of 100,000 followers in Jerusalem. The numbers that were loyal to the Pharisees were more like 6000. It was because the Pharisees were so heavily outnumbered that they only made their moves under the cover of darkness.

It also doesn't change the fact that Jesus came to the "Jew first" and then to the Gentiles. Also, the vast majority of Jesus' followers in the earliest days were Jewish and they didn't strike out and build their own churches. They worshipped right alongside their non-believing Jewish bretheren inside the Temple.

So what is the Christian stance on circumcision?

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

So what is the Christian stance on circumcision?

My stance is you should definately do it.


It's gross if you don't trust me the girls agree.