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  #41  
Old 08-06-2009, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KENTUCKYREDBONE
If you really think about it Hitler must have been a fan of Darwinism and he believed it was his place to influence the so called natural selection of Human Evolution! After all the Nut job claimed Black's were sub human almost ape or Gorilla! If like me you don't believe in Darwinism you don't believe that there's any such thing as a Master race!
I have Studied all three people at Academic Level.

The Ubermensche is NOT Darwin, it is Fredrich Nietzsche...and the moment any PERSON creates an "influence" over NATURAL selections, it is NOT Darwinian.

The fact is that Hitler made his own philosophy by twisting those of the other two so significantly that they fail to resemble the original anymore. What I find increadibly dumbass is that the majority of people have NO idea what Evolution actually is...not less the time span. For Evolution to have occured in the manner that Hitler Dictated under Darwin, the Jews would have naturally died out over a period of many millions of years as the environment favoured something that specifically put Jews at a natural disadvantage (thats only even possible because Jews are blood related)

THAT is Darwin. Darwin is not, Round up the Jews and gas them all...thats not even Nietzsche. Forgive me, but I prefer talking about the reality of the situation not pouring over some nonsensical statements and gasping in horror at them

Something worth Gasping in Horror at however was the bit of music that Adolf Hitler ordered at the Funeral of one of his top chiefs...might even have been the Check Republic, I cant recall, when that chief was assassinated. The Music is writen by one of the master composers of Germany "Wagner" Now Wagner tried to translate into music, the philosophy of Fredrich Nietzsche. The two, I believe lived at similar times, and had a turbulant friendship. Its a Funeral march taken from one of his Operatic works I believe

Take a listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20RldhK9354

(btw Wagner seems to have influenced Hans Zimmer quite a bit, if you think you hear bits of Gladiator Soundtrack in this performance LOL Nietzsche isnt all bad, although its not hard to see how his own philosophy eventually sent him to become clinically insane and die from maddness. When it comes to Power Discourse Philosophy, Fredrich was spot on, absolutely spot on!)
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  #42  
Old 08-06-2009, 02:45 PM
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NateR NateR is offline
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
I have Studied all three people at Academic Level.

The Ubermensche is NOT Darwin, it is Fredrich Nietzsche...and the moment any PERSON creates an "influence" over NATURAL selections, it is NOT Darwinian.

The fact is that Hitler made his own philosophy by twisting those of the other two so significantly that they fail to resemble the original anymore. What I find increadibly dumbass is that the majority of people have NO idea what Evolution actually is...not less the time span. For Evolution to have occured in the manner that Hitler Dictated under Darwin, the Jews would have naturally died out over a period of many millions of years as the environment favoured something that specifically put Jews at a natural disadvantage (thats only even possible because Jews are blood related)

THAT is Darwin. Darwin is not, Round up the Jews and gas them all...thats not even Nietzsche. Forgive me, but I prefer talking about the reality of the situation not pouring over some nonsensical statements and gasping in horror at them

Something worth Gasping in Horror at however was the bit of music that Adolf Hitler ordered at the Funeral of one of his top chiefs...might even have been the Check Republic, I cant recall, when that chief was assassinated. The Music is writen by one of the master composers of Germany "Wagner" Now Wagner tried to translate into music, the philosophy of Fredrich Nietzsche. The two, I believe lived at similar times, and had a turbulant friendship. Its a Funeral march taken from one of his Operatic works I believe

Take a listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20RldhK9354

(btw Wagner seems to have influenced Hans Zimmer quite a bit, if you think you hear bits of Gladiator Soundtrack in this performance LOL Nietzsche isnt all bad, although its not hard to see how his own philosophy eventually sent him to become clinically insane and die from maddness. When it comes to Power Discourse Philosophy, Fredrich was spot on, absolutely spot on!)
The point is not that Hitler was a Darwinist, the point is that he was clearly influenced by Darwinist ideals when forming his own philosophy. Especially when Darwin said that it was the duty of the superior races to eventually exterminate the lower races.
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  #43  
Old 08-06-2009, 02:57 PM
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Does all this even matter we will be extinct in 2012 anyways
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  #44  
Old 08-06-2009, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ufcfan2
Does all this even matter we will be extinct in 2012 anyways
End of the world as we know it.

That doesn't mean we're all going to die.
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  #45  
Old 08-06-2009, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NateR
The point is not that Hitler was a Darwinist, the point is that he was clearly influenced by Darwinist ideals when forming his own philosophy. Especially when Darwin said that it was the duty of the superior races to eventually exterminate the lower races.
Darwinian Evolution should really be based only on his work Origin of Species. Dont confuse yourself with his own political ideology that is nothing to do with the scientific ideal.

No, the Aryan Race and Eugenics are really about what one can do without a GOD incharge to become the best they can in the physical universe. The Iconoclast called Fredric Nietzsche first used the tern "Ubermensche" although I think he's talking more about individuals, he did apply the term to society as a whole as the idea of Post Modernity was just around the corner. Its not obvious whether Nietzsche is a late Enlightenment Philosopher, or the first Post-Modernist.

I found this artical online, its very good for explaining, I think once you've read it you will see where Hitler really drew his inspiration from.

The idea of the superman in Nietzsche’s works is a crucial element as he uses it as a foundation from which to attempt to challenge the ingrained values of society. These values behind what is considered to be good and evil, he asserts, having been founded on the Christian faith serve only to hamper human potential and have no basis on our everyday experiences (486-487, The Portable Nietzsche by Viking Press). His aim is to show us that for society to be able to live up to its true potential we need a new system of values which is more suited to our needs. In rejecting the idea of a God who gives us values changeless and transcendent of the everyday world he gives us superman, a real individual who creates values which are firmly rooted in the everyday changing world. This is someone who, by trusting his own intuitive sense of what is good and evil, succeeds better than any other. It is argued that only by following his example can we hope to improve ourselves and our society. Is the necessity of overthrowing the existing established values justified in Nietzsche’s doctrine, and does he in fact prove that his alternatives are any better?
Mankind, in order to justify its existence, has always required some belief in a higher purpose in life. People are never satisfied with the notion that there is no meaning in anything they do or accomplish. Without such a belief, life becomes impossible to bear as the question asked by nihilism is continually before one, "why live at all?"

The idea of God and Christianity was one successful solution to this problem. It redefined the way in which to view the world, telling us that there is actually much more going on than what we are normally aware of. In so doing it makes the idea of God necessary and inextricable from it. God the changeless omnipotent being outside of this world gives us transcendent values about what is good and what is evil which are the same for all men who are supposed to be equal. Christianity holds that this world is inherently evil and to abide by its practices is to be in direct conflict with God’s will. So success in this world is measured not in how well one survives or how much material wealth he accumulates but by how well one adheres to these values. This works for one no matter how miserably he gets along as his eyes presumably are always focused on the rewards or punishments which await in the next life.

One of the key points about Christianity that made it so successful was in the way that it addressed the question of suffering. Ever since there has been man there has been suffering in man, it abounds everywhere and is something which is impossible to ignore. Through the idea of asceticism in this religion, suffering was "interpreted" Nietzsche claims, and put, "in the perspective of guilt" (454). Though not attempting to alleviate suffering, asceticism gave it a purpose, comforting those it afflicts through the principle that the more the world makes one suffer the more reward he will have in the afterlife. This is so because one suffers by choosing to deny the world’s evil influences which manifest themselves in his natural desires (examples being: sex, the lust to rule and selfishness). Since these desires are wholly of this world, therefore running contrary to the good given us by God, they are to be suppressed at all costs. So, according to the ascetic belief, the more we suffer in this world the better our rewards will be in the next.

Nietzsche dismisses this answer to nihilism. As effective as it is he finds fault with it in that it serves to make one feel ashamed of himself and the world. In so doing this belief extinguishes an individual’s hope of fully realizing his own powers and strengths as such things are viewed in a negative light as being worldly thus evil. Nietzsche holds that such suppression tends to undermine an individual making him sickly and weak physically and psychologically (144-145); such a thing imposed upon society would naturally lead to a sick and weak population. Not seeing any overall gain in a system of beliefs which teaches suppression, he purposes to give us a new one which is not only said to be as effective but also frees us of Christianity’s binds. With his doctrine of the superman Nietzsche seeks to give us values that at the same time, create a medium where power is realized and strength flourishes, and define a purpose for life.

The superman is someone who in discovering himself (306) also discovers that it is in his best interests to reject any outside notions about values, trusting rather what he finds within himself. He creates his own good and evil, based on that which helps him to succeed or fail. In this way good is something which helps one to realize his potential and evil is whatever hampers or stands in the way of this effort. Since to Nietzsche everything in the world, including good and evil, is transitory (228) everything is being continually reinvented. The superman embraces this idea of change which to him appears evident, he understands the fact that since there is nothing in the world which is permanent whatever exists must eventually be overcome by something else which comes along. Seeing himself and his values in the same light he knows that these aspects must also be overcome by something stronger if not by him than by someone or something else. So in order to keep up with the times he continuously reinvents himself over and over always building something stronger, more powerful, on top of what went before. The superman therefore is the ideal of someone who has mastered the practice of overcoming himself.

The source of his strength lies in the cherishing of the same natural desires restricted in Christianity. Sex for him is, "a great invigoration of the heart", the lust to rule a "gift giving virtue" (in that it allows new ideas and life to ascend to those "pure and lonely self-sufficient heights" which "should not remain lonely and self sufficient eternally"), and selfishness is "blessed, wholesome [and] healthy" (301-302). He sees these insatiable desires as the best of all possible good since they act as the driving force behind his insatiable need to overcome, they spur him on always seeking their ever demanding satisfaction.

It is from the example of the superman that we are intended to see how much is actually attainable in the world. The values he creates he continually tests himself always refining them to be better and better still. In this way they rise above the values of the masses (the weaker, the unwise) until they arrive at the top and being superior to any other they serve as the guidelines for the rest of society. They remain on top until another superior system of values comes along and usurps it. In this way a society is created which, by allowing the stronger to prevail, promotes strength. Nietzsche deems this a healthy society as it always strives to heighten its potential and is founded upon the attributes of the healthiest individual who exists. It is a macroscopic version of the same sort of overcoming which occurs in the superman and is labeled healthy because weakness is discouraged in favor of a medium in which strength and superiority are pushed to the level of utmost importance.

In this system the question "why live?" asked by nihilists is answered in man’s striving to overcome himself. The superman sees mankind as a bridge which has no end (310) which always stretches still further and further. Thus mankind is aware of no ultimate limits. Each life is valuable as it can serve mankind by helping to push its potential ever higher, making it that much stronger, elevating it another step out of the comparative wretchedness which existed before this process was begun.


Now see some of the Def from Wiki

Zarathustra first announces the Übermensch as a goal humanity can set for itself. All human life would be given meaning by how it advanced a new generation of human beings. The aspiration of a woman would be to give birth to an Übermensch, for example; her relationships with men would be judged by this standard.[4]

Zarathustra contrasts the Übermensch with the last man of egalitarian modernity, an alternative goal which humanity might set for itself. The last man appears only in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, and is presented as a condition that would render the creation of the Übermensch impossible.

Some commentators associate the Übermensch with a program of eugenics.[5] This is most pronounced when considered in the aspect of a goal that humanity sets for itself. The reduction of all psychology to physiology implies, to some, that human beings can be bred for cultural traits. This interpretation of Nietzsche's doctrine focuses more on the future of humanity than on a single cataclysmic individual. There is no consensus regarding how this aspect of the Übermensch relates to the creation of new values, and many would deny vehemently that Nietzsche would countenance a eugenics program at all.

For Rüdiger Safranski, the Übermensch represents a higher biological type reached through artificial selection and at the same time is also an ideal for anyone who is creative and strong enough to master the whole spectrum of human potential, good and "evil", to become an "artist-tyrant". In Ecce Homo, Nietzsche vehemently denied any idealistic, democratic or humanitarian interpretation of the Übermensch: "The word Übermensch [designates] a type of supreme achievement, as opposed to 'modern' men, 'good' men, Christians, and other nihilists ... When I whispered into the ears of some people that they were better off looking for a Cesare Borgia than a Parsifal, they did not believe their ears."[6]. Safranski argues that the combination of ruthless warrior pride and artistic brilliance that defined the Italian Renaissance embodied the sense of the Übermensch for Nietzsche. According to Safranski, Nietzsche intended the ultra-aristocratic figure of the Übermensch to serve as a Machiavellian bogeyman of the modern Western middle class and its pseudo-Christian egalitarian value system.


from yet a third source

And now for our second question. What was the goal Nietzsche had in mind for his immoralist? What was to be the final outcome of his overturning of all morality? Did he believe the human race would progress until men became gods and controlled the sun and stars as they now control the flow of great rivers? Or did he believe that the end of it all would be annihilation? After the publication of Nietzsche's earlier books, with their ruthless tearing down of the old morality, these questions were asked by critics innumerable in all the countries of Europe. The philosopher was laughed at as a crazy iconoclast who destroyed without rebuilding. He was called a visionary and a lunatic, and it was reported and believed that he had no answer: that his philosophy was doomed to bear itself to the earth, like an arch without a keystone. But in April, 1883, he began the publication of Also sprach Zarathustra and therein his reply was written large.

"I teach you," cries Zarathustra, "the superman! Man is something that shall be surpassed. What, to man, is the ape? A joke or a shame. Man shall be the same to the superman: a joke or shame.... Man is a bridge connecting ape and superman.... The superman will be the final flower and ultimate expression of the earth. I conjure you to be faithful to the earth... to cease looking beyond the stars for your hopes and rewards. You must sacrifice yourself to the earth that one day it may bring forth the superman."((8))
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  #46  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:50 PM
KENTUCKYREDBONE
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To me it sounds like he believed in Evolution he just wanted to be the one guiding it! Basically he seemed to think he was God when he wasn't! You can nitpick all the academics you want but it boils down to pretty much the same thing!
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