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  #21  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mscomc
My point is moot? Did you not read my post correctly or something? or did you just pick and choose what to read? Right after i commented on the "obstructed view" topic, i said that this was NOT really the point i wanted to make, and I then posted more things right after, to try and give another perspective to the story. The second part of my most occupied about 90% of what I was trying to get across.
The response was to the text that was block quoted. That point is moot, as Gates admitted to behavior that would appear to an observer to be a "break-in" (although legal for him to do because it is his house). Gates himself does not contest that he tried to "shoulder" open the door. Ergo, your point is moot.
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  #22  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
The response was to the text that was block quoted. That point is moot, as Gates admitted to behavior that would appear to an observer to be a "break-in" (although legal for him to do because it is his house). Gates himself does not contest that he tried to "shoulder" open the door. Ergo, your point is moot.
From Moot to Ergo? nice use of vocabulary. Well ok, maybe you think my point is moot, even though you have yet to discuss with me the rest of what I tried to say; you know about past experiences gates may have had with cops, and how there are cops who do like to try and flex their muslce and little etc etc etc but hey, we cant force people to engage in such debate.

Maybe my point is moot....but hey,thanks for sounding like a stuck up snob about it while cleverly trying to act slightly articulate.
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  #23  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:54 AM
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I mean, not to make this a matter of race, because it shoudnt be....but who knows what gates' experiences have been with police in the past? I mean he probably lived through the civil rights movement where cops where known to be less than "fair" to african-americans
Gates made it a matter of race when he started yelling "Is This How You Treat A Black Man In America?" when he was asked to provide identification. Frankly, I don't care about Mr Gate's past experience. He doesn't get a "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free" card because he "lived through the civil rights movement". All he had to do was say: "I think there has been a mistake here, officer. I live here. Here is my driver's license, which, as you can see, has this address on it. I just returned from vacation and had trouble with a stuck door. Is there anything else I can do to clear this up for you?" It would have taken less than 30 seconds.
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  #24  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mscomc
From Moot to Ergo? nice use of vocabulary. Well ok, maybe you think my point is moot, even though you have yet to discuss with me the rest of what I tried to say; you know about past experiences gates may have had with cops, and how there are cops who do like to try and flex their muslce and little etc etc etc but hey, we cant force people to engage in such debate.

Maybe my point is moot....but hey,thanks for sounding like a stuck up snob about it while cleverly trying to act slightly articulate.
Your post was long and is being responded to in pieces. Please be patient.

I have found that when people are losing an argument, they resort to ad hominem attacks. Don't you?

Exempli gratia:

Quote:
From Moot to Ergo? nice use of vocabulary
Quote:
thanks for sounding like a stuck up snob


I find it ironic that you are defending the actions of Gates, a Harvard professor, who yelled in a beat cop's face, "Don't You Know Who I am!!"; yet, you attack me a "stuck up snob" because I am arguing with you and defending the actions of a working-class beat cop. If anyone's actions are that of a "stuck up snob", they are the actions of Gates, a man whose actions you are defending.
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  #25  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
Gates made it a matter of race when he started yelling "Is This How You Treat A Black Man In America?" when he was asked to provide identification. Frankly, I don't care about Mr Gate's past experience. He doesn't get a "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free" card because he "lived through the civil rights movement". All he had to do was say: "I think there has been a mistake here, officer. I live here. Here is my driver's license, which, as you can see, has this address on it. I just returned from vacation and had trouble with a stuck door. Is there anything else I can do to clear this up for you?" It would have taken less than 30 seconds.
Im not saying he should get a get out jail free card. I was trying to explain that past experiences with Cops during his youth, a time of definite racial disparity and a time where some cops were known to treat blacks poorly and not fairly may have contributed why he blew up at the cop....and you dont think that that holds ANY water at all? ...you dont care what he has been through? Do you have any clue what life was like for some people in his youth, because of things like race? Do you? I mean do you really? No you probably do not. You dont think times like that shape a man as he grows older? I think they might. On top of that, I have still not heard the full dialogue between Gates and the officer...and I MEAN THE FULL THING. From the time he introduces himself as an officer, and gates' original response. All I have heard, courtesy of ABC news (with my main man charlie gibson) is a 30 second clip where the officer tells his dispatcher that he needs backup. Who knows what the cop could have been saying to gates before that (or vice versa). He really may have been out of line in the way he spoke to gates, or the way he continued to speak to gates afterwards. We dont know, because a cops word always count for more, and thats why some cops run rampid with the power they have. What are you going to tell me next, there is no such thing as bad cops?
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  #26  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:16 AM
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[QUOTE=Play The Man][FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="4"]Your post was long and is being responded to in pieces. Please be patient.

I have found that when people are losing an argument, they resort to ad hominem attacks. Don't you?

It is not an attack, it was an oppinion. If I wanted to attack you, I certainly would have been more vulgar about it, but I am not.

And you are defending the working-class cop? So gates isnt working class? The guy doesnt have to work for his money. That guy didnt have to pull himself up by his bootstraps and work hard to earn a pHD, and then no doubt had to work even harder to obtain a tenured position at HARVARD!!!.

And another thing, its good to defend the cop, as I encourage trying to see things from another persective, but do you honestly thinks that COPS can do no wrong? HMMM? And another thing, I to would have tried to argue from the cops perspective if I felt that was they way this thread was going. But most people on this thread, from what i read, were already agreeing with the cop, so I was trying to give a voice from Gates' perspective.
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  #27  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mscomc
what if during their conversation, that COP really was being a jerk? I think we have all met those kind of cops....ones who just like to try and flex their muscle and act like the big bad boss
The occupation of police officer has a high rate of morbidity and mortality. When a cop kisses his wife good-bye and goes off to work, he knows that there is a real chance that he may not make it home alive from his shift. Cops give orders, not suggestions, because from the moment they have contact with a suspect, they must be in control, to have the best odds of going home safely after their shift. They must present a figure of authority. The policeman always thinks in the back of his mind that the suspect could be armed. Cops often have to be "jerks" to show dominance over a belligerent suspect and get a suspect to "back down" before a situation escalates to violence. For example, the Cambridge police officer pulled out his handcuffs and warned Gates that he would be arrested. Showing the handcuffs was a show of force, to warn Gates to settle down. He didn't heed the warning.

If a citizen is mistreated by a policeman, he has the option to file a complaint. Gates should have complied with the officer and then filed a complaint, if he felt he was not treated fairly.

I have been treated rudely by police officers; however, I guess I don't have such a sense of self-importance that I feel that I have to disobey them to demonstrate that I am a man. I respect the police. I appreciate police officers and I will defend them when they are treated unfairly.
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  #28  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
The occupation of police officer has a high rate of morbidity and mortality. When a cop kisses his wife good-bye and goes off to work, he knows that there is a real chance that he may not make it home alive from his shift. Cops give orders, not suggestions, because from the moment they have contact with a suspect, they must be in control, to have the best odds of going home safely after their shift. They must present a figure of authority. The policeman always thinks in the back of his mind that the suspect could be armed. Cops often have to be "jerks" to show dominance over a belligerent suspect and get a suspect to "back down" before a situation escalates to violence. For example, the Cambridge police officer pulled out his handcuffs and warned Gates that he would be arrested. Showing the handcuffs was a show of force, to warn Gates to settle down. He didn't heed the warning.

If a citizen is mistreated by a policeman, he has the option to file a complaint. Gates should have complied with the officer and then filed a complaint, if he felt he was not treated fairly.

I have been treated rudely by police officers; however, I guess I don't have such a sense of self-importance that I feel that I have to disobey them to demonstrate that I am a man. I respect the police. I appreciate police officers and I will defend them when they are treated unfairly.
Ok fair enough. I personally know a few cops, and I dont beleive that you need to induce what seems to be FEAR in order to be dominat and have power... I think being able to weild RESPECT is power. Anyway, I can see what your saying from that perspective.

But being a cop who likes to really assert his/her dominance isnt to far from crossing the line....and many cops do, its just the way it is. True, people can file a complaint afterwards, but thats not what is going through your head when you feel your beeing spoken down to by a guy who has a badge on his chet and gun at his waist. Anway just my two cents.
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  #29  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mscomc
Im not saying he should get a get out jail free card. I was trying to explain that past experiences with Cops during his youth, a time of definite racial disparity and a time where some cops were known to treat blacks poorly and not fairly may have contributed why he blew up at the cop....and you dont think that that holds ANY water at all? ...you dont care what he has been through? Do you have any clue what life was like for some people in his youth, because of things like race? Do you? I mean do you really? No you probably do not. You dont think times like that shape a man as he grows older? I think they might. On top of that, I have still not heard the full dialogue between Gates and the officer...and I MEAN THE FULL THING. From the time he introduces himself as an officer, and gates' original response. All I have heard, courtesy of ABC news (with my main man charlie gibson) is a 30 second clip where the officer tells his dispatcher that he needs backup. Who knows what the cop could have been saying to gates before that (or vice versa). He really may have been out of line in the way he spoke to gates, or the way he continued to speak to gates afterwards. We dont know, because a cops word always count for more, and thats why some cops run rampid with the power they have. What are you going to tell me next, there is no such thing as bad cops?
The fact is you don't what he has "been through". Unless you have a detailed knowledge of his youth you are making assumptions. Whatever his experiences as a youth, he is not allowed to disobey the police. Are you going to tell me there is no such thing as bad black professors?
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  #30  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:51 AM
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[QUOTE=mscomc]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Play The Man
[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="4"]Your post was long and is being responded to in pieces. Please be patient.

I have found that when people are losing an argument, they resort to ad hominem attacks. Don't you?

It is not an attack, it was an oppinion. If I wanted to attack you, I certainly would have been more vulgar about it, but I am not.
My point is, instead of focusing on the argument, you were making comments about me. I didn't accuse you of being vulgar. I accused you of employing a logical fallacy.
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