Well, i'm already in the doghouse....

[adamt]

Originally Posted by NateR

That's absolute nonsense, Dave.

+2

[adamt]

the discussion is all well and good, BUT my original point still stands ....

This is not public school vs home school, this is "public school is the same as welfare" and "public school is the same as public healthcare"

[NateR]

Originally Posted by adamt

the discussion is all well and good, BUT my original point still stands ....

This is not public school vs home school, this is "public school is the same as welfare" and "public school is the same as public healthcare"

Do you drive a car? Don't tax dollars pay to maintain the highways? So, if you drive on roads, aren't you just as guilty of leaching off the government as bums on welfare?

[Play The Man]

Originally Posted by NateR

That's absolute nonsense, Dave.

We are obligated to pay taxes; however, we need to give more input on where the money is spent, not less (or none).

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Play The Man

We are obligated to pay taxes; however, we need to give more input on where the money is spent, not less (or none).

Exactly, we need to hold our elected Representatives accountable for how they spend OUR tax money.

[Play The Man]

Originally Posted by NateR

Well, I will agree that our current public school system has really just become a series of left-wing indoctrination camps.

I went to public school in Santa Fe, NM, one of the most liberal cities in the nation. We were taught the purest forms of Darwinian Evolution. The students who believed in Biblical Creation were usually allowed to voice their opinions in science class, but it was only to give the teachers the opportunity to ridicule them publicly. We were taught the "values" of Feminism and transcendental meditation in English class. We learned how open minded and progressive religions like Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism were and how closed minded Christianity was, in Social Studies. We even had a German language teacher who would show pornographic German films to the class, so we could learn about German culture. Pretty much everything that is going on at college campuses right now I was dealing with in public school as early as 6th grade.

However, it has not always been like this. Public schooling is a Christian concept and was originally intended to be an evangelism tool. In fact, the very first public schools in America had only two books on the required reading list: the Holy Bible and the New England Primer.

Here is an example of one of the lessons from the New England Primer, you can see that the concept of "separation of church and state" was not something that existed in the early days of America:


In fact, "separation of church and state" was invented in the 1950s based on an out of context quote from Thomas Jefferson.

Unfortunately, the Left-Wing Secular Progressives took over our schools in the 1970s and it's been a sharp downhill slide ever since. For the first time in any nations history, we've had generation after generation becoming increasingly less intelligent since the 1960s. In other words, My brother and I are less educated than our parents and my nephews will be even less educated than me and my brother.

Personally, I believe that's the Progressive's plan, if you have children who aren't capable of even reading the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, in it's original form, then how can they possibly understand what their freedoms are? It gives the Secular Progressives the power to rewrite the Constitution at will because all the ignorant public-school students aren't smart enough to know any better.

But I digress, my whole point is that you are condemning the system based on the corrupt form that it takes today. It wasn't always this way. Just like hospitals weren't always run by greedy mega-corporations and doctors weren't always the glorified drug-dealers that many have become today.

In fact, the idea that every child deserved an education, regardless of social class, and every person deserved access to medical care were originally Christian concepts. Like public schools, early hospitals were founded by Christians and used as evangelism tools (nurses would often sit with the patients and read the Bible to them).

Unfortunately, like every human run institution, public schools, hospitals and churches are ripe for corruption and their values have decayed over the years/decades/centuries.

I agree. It amazes me how much they can politicize education, down to the youngest grade levels. At this point in time, I am glad that this concept of separation of church and state is in force (although, I agree with you that it isn't what the founders intended). If we had religion in the schools it would be either "New Age" or Universalist, it would not be Christian, even if they taught some quotes from the Bible to justify it. I would be happy if the public schools could just be neutral. Don't undermine my authority as a parent and teach things that are contrary to my beliefs. You would think they could teach things like math and grammar without indoctrinating students; however, even those subjects aren't safe. It is worse with more controversial subjects like history and science. Another problem is that the schools can't, or won't, discipline students, so thugs run roughshod over many public schools.

I remember reading that at one point, the New England Puritans had a plan to have schools available throughout the colonies to teach Greek to every able man so the New Testament could be read in the original language.

As a side note, I noticed in other threads that NateR is an artist. I wish a Christian artist would update the pictures of the New England Primer with modern, color pictures to engage today's children. The available facsimile copies have less-detailed, tiny, "rough", woodcuts. I would bet that the New England Primer is in the public realm and not copyrighted. I wish a talented artist would update it with large, colorful, detailed pictures that would draw a young child into the book. Perhaps, it could become widely read again.

Originally Posted by NateR

Do you drive a car? Don't tax dollars pay to maintain the highways? So, if you drive on roads, aren't you just as guilty of leaching off the government as bums on welfare?

OOOOHH!!!!! Good round for Nate!!!

[Play The Man]

I am a critic of welfare, as it has been administered in this country, but I am not against the concept of helping my fellow man or supporting my community. I believe that certain people, such as children, mentally retarded people, severely mentally ill individuals, and people with physical handicaps that make employment extremely difficult (if not impossible) need support and help from other people. This help can come from government, charities, family, or other individuals; charities do it better than government, in my opinion, but government should be a backstop to prevent vulnerable people from suffering deprivation. I am against welfare for adult, able-bodied individuals. I think people need to be more generous to charities. I believe that, given a choice, people would probably send their kids to a private school vs. a public school. I wish school vouchers would get a fair trial on a large scale; school choice could shake things up and help make the public school system more accountable. I wish all parents would provide for their own child's education; however, unfortunately, there are too many irresponsible parents out there and pulling the plug on public funding of education, altogether, would leave many children growing up in ignorance and poverty, with no chance for upward mobility, due to the fault of the parents. Publicly-funded education, whether in a public school or via a voucher in a private school, at least gives a vulnerable child a lifeline.

[adamt]

Originally Posted by NateR

Do you drive a car? Don't tax dollars pay to maintain the highways? So, if you drive on roads, aren't you just as guilty of leaching off the government as bums on welfare?

YES that's my point exactly!!! bums on welfare get the bad rap when we're no better than they are!

Of course gas taxes are for roads so the more gas you buy the more roads you pave, and property taxes have absolutely nothing to do with schools, so there are families with 2,3, or 4 kids in school that might pay nothing, while families with no kids in school that might pay thousands.

I think what Adam is possibly saying here is most people do not use the school system yet they still have to pay the tax and at last study most parents of public school kids in the majority of the urban cities of America do not pay taxes for their kids to attend school because most cities pay for it via property taxes. So why should a 70 year old single home owner pay taxes for a single mother with 10 kids who lives in a HUD home? That is welfare. Whereas Nate suggested roads and we ALL use them so we should all pay for them same as the police, fire dept, water treatments etc. But not everyone uses the school and very few pay for it. So roads vs educational system is not a fair comparison.