Go Back   Matt-Hughes.com Official Forums > General Discussions > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:46 PM
Play The Man's Avatar
Play The Man Play The Man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neezar
SV40 spread by the polio vaccine is one example. Only it can't be proven that it killed anyone so the government isn't denying it.
It would be more accurate to say that you know there has been zoonotic viral transmission, in the past, through contaminated vaccine.
__________________
"Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man! We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out."
--Hugh Latimer, October 16, 1555
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:46 PM
Neezar's Avatar
Neezar Neezar is offline
SupaDupaMod
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South
Posts: 6,471
Send a message via Yahoo to Neezar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Play The Man
I am glad that you get your kids vaccinated.

Epidemics do go away, after a huge group of the population has caught the disease and either died or mounted a successful immune response (and of course endured a huge amount of suffering). The infection usually strikes the population again when enough young people are around who have immune systems that are naive to the pathogen. This is the rationale for vaccines, not an argument against their implementation.

Please provide evidence of your assertion that cases of a disease increased after the introduction of a vaccine.
Here is a portion of an article. He gives his references at the end.

During the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when smallpox epidemics ran rampant, the introduction of smallpox vaccination was often followed by an increased incidence of the disease. Many vaccine critics accused the smallpox vaccine of precipitating these epidemics. A disastrous smallpox epidemic occurred in England during the period 1871-1873 at a time when the compulsory smallpox vaccination law had resulted in nearly universal coverage. A Royal Commission was appointed in 1889 to investigate the history of vaccination in the United Kingdom. Evidence mounted that smallpox epidemics increased dramatically after 1854, the year the compulsory vaccination law went into effect. In the London epidemic of 1857-1859, there were more than 14,000 deaths; in the 1863-1865 outbreak 20,000 deaths; and from 1871 to 1873 all of Europe was swept by the worst smallpox epidemic in recorded history. In England and Wales alone, 45,000 people died of smallpox at a time when, according to official estimates, 97 percent of the population had been vaccinated.


When Japan started compulsory vaccination against smallpox in 1872 the disease steadily increased each year. In 1892 more than 165,000 cases occurred with 30,000 deaths in a completely vaccinated population. During the same time period Australia had no compulsory vaccination laws, and only three deaths occurred from smallpox over a 15-year period.

Germany adopted a compulsory vaccination law in 1834, and rigorously enforced re-vaccinations. Yet during the period 1871-1872 there were 125,000 deaths from smallpox. In Berlin itself 17,000 cases of smallpox occurred among the vaccinated population, of whom 2,240 were under ten years of age, and of these vaccinated children 736 died.

In the Philippines, global public health measures were instituted when the United States began its occupation to establish a self-reliant government in the early 1900s. The incidence of smallpox steadily declined and the compulsory vaccine campaign was credited with this dramatic reduction. However, in the years 1917 to 1919, the Philippines experienced the worst epidemic of smallpox in the countryís history with over 160,000 cases and over 70,000 deaths in a completely vaccinated population. Over 43,000 deaths from smallpox occurred in 1919 alone. The entire population of the Philippines at the time was only 11 million.
Vaccine failures of this magnitude may have several causes. The vaccine used could have been defective. During that period it was difficult to verify what the vaccine actually contained. The vaccine could have been contaminated with smallpox virus and actually caused epidemics. Or vaccine critics may have been correct in asserting that Jennerís cowpox vaccine, which is essentially the same vaccine used today, simply did not work to prevent smallpox.




http://www.foundationforhealthchoice...lerandall.html
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:49 PM
Neezar's Avatar
Neezar Neezar is offline
SupaDupaMod
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South
Posts: 6,471
Send a message via Yahoo to Neezar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Play The Man
It would be more accurate to say that you know there has been zoonotic viral transmission, in the past, through contaminated vaccine.
And since those vaccines were prepared with monkey tissue, I think it would be a safe thesis that it was a virus from a monkey.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:55 PM
Neezar's Avatar
Neezar Neezar is offline
SupaDupaMod
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South
Posts: 6,471
Send a message via Yahoo to Neezar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Play The Man
I am glad that you get your kids vaccinated.

Epidemics do go away, after a huge group of the population has caught the disease and either died or mounted a successful immune response (and of course endured a huge amount of suffering).

Isn't this true even with vaccinations?

The infection usually strikes the population again when enough young people are around who have immune systems that are naive to the pathogen. This is the rationale for vaccines, not an argument against their implementation.

But evidence seemed to show that even the small pox had it's later rounds even with the vaccination - just less deadly, I suppose.

Some say that these things will happen just the same without vaccinations. Taking nature's course.

Personally, I don't have anything against using vaccines if it will speed the process up though.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 07-29-2009, 09:42 PM
Preach
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Who I say Who let the dogs out
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-29-2009, 11:52 PM
Play The Man's Avatar
Play The Man Play The Man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neezar
And since those vaccines were prepared with monkey tissue, I think it would be a safe thesis that it was a virus from a monkey.
I am trying to be careful with the terminology. You said: "I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans". My clarification of your statement revolved around the word "diseases" and not the word, "monkey". Koch's postulates must be fulfilled to prove that disease has been spread. There is controversy over whether SV40 caused disease, even though you are correct that virus was passed from contaminated vaccine stock. This argues for care in vaccine preparation (with which I strongly agree), not the abolition of vaccines.
__________________
"Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man! We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out."
--Hugh Latimer, October 16, 1555
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-30-2009, 12:28 AM
Neezar's Avatar
Neezar Neezar is offline
SupaDupaMod
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South
Posts: 6,471
Send a message via Yahoo to Neezar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Play The Man
I am trying to be careful with the terminology. You said: "I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans". My clarification of your statement revolved around the word "diseases" and not the word, "monkey". Koch's postulates must be fulfilled to prove that disease has been spread. There is controversy over whether SV40 caused disease, even though you are correct that virus was passed from contaminated vaccine stock. This argues for care in vaccine preparation (with which I strongly agree), not the abolition of vaccines.


Who is using it to argue the abolition of vaccines? I was using it to prove that a virus( a monkey virus) has, in fact, been passed from vaccines to humans. Thus, a theory that vaccine spread the HIV virus through a vaccine is not that far of a stretch. I never intended to argue the abolition of vaccines. I get them, my children get them. I just question the claims behind them sometimes.

I did interchange the words disease and virus. You got me there. lol
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07-30-2009, 12:28 AM
Neezar's Avatar
Neezar Neezar is offline
SupaDupaMod
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South
Posts: 6,471
Send a message via Yahoo to Neezar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preach
Who I say Who let the dogs out
woof, woof


Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-30-2009, 12:55 AM
Play The Man's Avatar
Play The Man Play The Man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,259
Default

I read the linked article by Randall Neustaedter, OMD, LAc, CCH but didn't quote it because it was long and I didn't want to lengthen this thread. To be honest, I didn't know what "OMD, LAc, CCH" was, but according to my internet search (isn't the internet grand?) it stands for: "Doctor of Oriental Medicine, Licensed Acupuncturist, and Certified in Classical Homeopathy". Mr. Neustaedter (or should I call him "Oriental Doctor" Neustaedter?) sure seems to be critical of vaccines and allopathic medicine. I wonder what his treatment for some of the vaccine-preventable diseases might be? Perhaps, he could draw from his bag of "Oriental Medicine" medicines and treat a child dying with Haemophilus influenzae type B meningitis with some extract of dried tiger penis? Or maybe he could use his skill as an acupuncturist and treat the child dying of measles encephalitis with needles to his chakra? Or maybe he could draw on the storied history of homeopathy to treat someone with liver failure from Hepatitis B with a homeopathic dose of arsenic? I guess we will never know because, in my opinion, no reputable hospital in the country would give him privileges. He limits his practice to rich, healthy hippies without real medical issues.

It would be a fool's errand to try to follow the references of Neustaedter's article. It is not peer-reviewed. During the peer-review process, all of the references are checked and double-checked. In my opinion, what he wrote is "junk" science. His youngest example is 90 years old. All the examples take place in foreign countries where it would literally require someone to hop on an airplane and search foreign libraries to verify his statistics. In cases where claims of this ilk have been traced back to the source, it is invariably a late 19th century monograph by an anti-vaccine crank who never submitted his data for peer review.

For those reading this thread that are curious about the safety and efficacy of childhood vaccines, here is a link to a parent's guide put out by the CDC:http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPr...ents-guide.pdf. The data below are from page 15 of the parent's guide. That page also gives a reference to MMWR, which can be accessed on the CDC website. Please note that smallpox statistics are included. Please trust your child's health to a reputable source. Excellent resources are available on-line, such as: Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.com/, CDC http://www.cdc.gov/, etc. Please don't trust your kid's health to a pony-tailed guy selling patent-medicines in a van down by the river.

Quote:
* Diphtheria
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 175,885
Cases in 2003: 1
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Hib (<5 yrs old)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 20,000 (estimate)
Cases in 2003: 259
Decrease in cases per year: 98.8%

* Measles
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 503,282
Cases in 2003: 56
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Mumps
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 152,209
Cases in 2003: 231
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Pertussis (whooping cough)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 147,271
Cases in 2003: 11,647
Decrease in cases per year: 92.1%

* Polio (paralytic)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 16,316
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%

* Rubella
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 47,745
Cases in 2003: 7
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%

* Smallpox
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 48,164
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%

* Tetanus
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 1,314
Cases in 2003: 20
Decrease in cases per year: 98.5%
__________________
"Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man! We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out."
--Hugh Latimer, October 16, 1555
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-30-2009, 01:00 AM
Play The Man's Avatar
Play The Man Play The Man is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neezar
You agree that different things have differnt molecular clocks (i.e. rates), correct?


Is the molecular clock of one sub-group of HIV equal to all the others?

At the end of the article they say they compare this ZR59 and DRC60, what was the results, do you know?

And even if the vaccine isn't the very first way that HIV was spread to humans, I still believe that it happened.
If you are honestly interested in the data, and would be open-minded to its ramifications for your belief in a vaccine/HIV connection, I would be willing to get you a copy of the study. If this is just internet jousting, let's not waste each other's time.
__________________
"Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man! We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out."
--Hugh Latimer, October 16, 1555
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.