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  #31  
Old 07-29-2009, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man

I suspect the "doctors" are naturopaths. Naturopaths are not M.D.s. Please clarify.


No, they are licensed medical doctors. Naturopathic medical doctors maybe, but still......

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  #32  
Old 07-29-2009, 07:17 PM
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PARIS: The AIDS virus, previously thought to have been transmitted from chimps to humans in the 1930s, may have leapt the species barrier more than a century ago in west-central Africa.

Analysis of tissues preserved by doctors in the colonial-era Belgian Congo shows that the most pervasive strain of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) began spreading among humans at some point between 1884 and 1924.

"The diversification of HIV-1 in west-central Africa occurred long before the recognised AIDS pandemic," scientists behind the research announced today in the British science journal Nature.

Molecular clock

AIDS first came to public notice in 1981, when U.S. doctors noted an unusual cluster of deaths among young homosexuals in California and New York. It has since killed at least 25 million people, and 33 million others are living with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS by destroying immune cells.

Epidemiologists trying to date the history of HIV have until now been limited to only one laboratory source that long precedes the detected start of the outbreak. This is a now-legendary blood sample called 'ZR59', which was taken in 1959 from a patient in Leopoldville, now Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of Congo (previously Belgian Congo).

HIV is highly mutating virus, with as much as one per cent of its genome diverging per year. This rate of mutation gives rise to a measurement called a 'molecular clock', a timescale at which the HIV deviates from previous strains and from its animal ancestor, the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV).

New clue

By this calculation, HIV began to spread among humans before 1940, according to ZR59's genes. Now, though, another precious piece of the jigsaw has emerged.

It is a piece of lymph node tissue that was taken for a biopsy from a woman in Kinshasa in 1960 and preserved in a bed of paraffin wax. It was found in the archives of the Anatomy Department at the University of Kinshasa.

As they report in Nature an international team of sleuths pieced together the genetic sequence of the virus the sub-group M of HIV-1 and then compared telltale regions between ZR59 and the second sample, DRC60.

The research was led by Michael Worobey of the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona in Tucson, USA.

His team found a significant divergence between the two genetic regions, and calculated that this gap must have taken around 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor.
You will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory.

This group came to this conclusion based on studying two (only two? lol) different samples from wayback and decide that it MUST have taken 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor? Sorry. Not buying it. They have no idea of knowing the rate of mutation in different hosts and under different environmental conditions, etc. Not enough to convince me.
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  #33  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans.
I bolded the quote. How do you know? I provided evidence to the contrary based on "molecular clocks" yet you stated that, "you will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory." I guess at least you are honest. It is just a theory; however, it provides the best explanation currently available. I don't know it to be true; however, it has much more evidence than conspiracy theories about vaccines.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
You will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory.

This group came to this conclusion based on studying two (only two? lol) different samples from wayback and decide that it MUST have taken 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor? Sorry. Not buying it. They have no idea of knowing the rate of mutation in different hosts and under different environmental conditions, etc. Not enough to convince me.
The "molecular clock" is not based on two samples; they are simply the earliest samples available, of many. Please read the actual study before you so easily dismiss it.
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  #35  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar


No, they are licensed medical doctors. Naturopathic medical doctors maybe, but still......

They are not the same thing. You might find the link below helpful. It exposes all kinds of quackery, including the vaccine issue, naturopaths, etc.

http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html
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  #36  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
I bolded the quote. How do you know? I provided evidence to the contrary based on "molecular clocks" yet you stated that, "you will never convince me to accept this as anything other than a theory." I guess at least you are honest. It is just a theory; however, it provides the best explanation currently available. I don't know it to be true; however, it has much more evidence than conspiracy theories about vaccines.
SV40 spread by the polio vaccine is one example. Only it can't be proven that it killed anyone so the government isn't denying it.
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  #37  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
You say the number of cases declined after the vaccinations began? NOT true in some cases, it was quite the opposite. However, I have no doubt that the number of death cases did decline.


I have looked into a bit. There have been other diseases that declined and faded out without a vaccine.



I get my kids vaccinated to err on the side of caution. Just not sure how much belief I have in their efficiency.
I am glad that you get your kids vaccinated.

Epidemics do go away, after a huge group of the population has caught the disease and either died or mounted a successful immune response (and of course endured a huge amount of suffering). The infection usually strikes the population again when enough young people are around who have immune systems that are naive to the pathogen. This is the rationale for vaccines, not an argument against their implementation.

Please provide evidence of your assertion that cases of a disease increased after the introduction of a vaccine.
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  #38  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
They are not the same thing. You might find the link below helpful. It exposes all kinds of quackery, including the vaccine issue, naturopaths, etc.

http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html
What lead you to think that I thought they were the same thing?
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  #39  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:41 PM
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You agree that different things have differnt molecular clocks (i.e. rates), correct?


Is the molecular clock of one sub-group of HIV equal to all the others?

At the end of the article they say they compare this ZR59 and DRC60, what was the results, do you know?

And even if the vaccine isn't the very first way that HIV was spread to humans, I still believe that it happened.
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  #40  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
What lead you to think that I thought they were the same thing?
You said they may be "naturopathic medical doctors". Allopathic physicians and Naturopathic practioners have different training, different licensing (or no licensing for naturopaths in many states), different philosophies, etc. It would be akin to calling someone a Muslim Episcopalian. It shouldn't be possible but the world is messed up:http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...edding17m.html
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