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  #21  
Old 07-29-2009, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Hughes_GOAT
and Bonnie did agree, she just got tired of debating. that's not the same as buying into what you're selling. if i'm wrong, Bonnie, then sorry. i don't think you're convinced that there is no connection with vaccines and autism though.
Bonnie wrote a sign-off in the Christian section. She is going in for an operation. She will not be responding for awhile.
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  #22  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DonnaMaria

People who have existing plans won't change?

yes?
that is correct
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  #23  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
Vaccines started HIV.
You must have read The River.
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  #24  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
You must have read The River.
No. I didn't read it. A doctor told me about it though.
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  #25  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
I think you need to read up on the subject a bit more. Variolization has been practiced for at least a millenium. Jenner introduced vaccination with cowpox in 1796. Vaccinia vaccination was introduced in the 19th century. As I mentioned, Smallpox is estimated to have killed at least 300 million people (possibly 500 million people) in the 20th century alone. Your statement, "smallpox was already on the decline, even before the vaccine came out" is absolute nonsense. I suppose the steep drop in the number of cases of other vaccine-preventable disease is a coincidence as well?

Some don't credit the vaccines with the steep drop in the spread of communicable diseases as much as education. They were taking drastic other measures and were beginning to understand how these things were spread and how to prevent it. I may look into that when I get time.

I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans.


edit: Just a little tid bit if your interested, I know a couple of families who don't get their children vaccinated and they are medical doctors.
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  #26  
Old 07-29-2009, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
No. I didn't read it. A doctor told me about it though.
There have been several studies since the book was published which place the species jump several decades before the vaccine work with primate cell cultures that the author was describing. By analyzing the genome of different virus samples collected at different, known times, scientists can make a "molecular clock" and estimate the date that a virus jumped species. The science doesn't back up the author's speculation.
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  #27  
Old 07-29-2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
There have been several studies since the book was published which place the species jump several decades before the vaccine work with primate cell cultures that the author was describing. By analyzing the genome of different virus samples collected at different, known times, scientists can make a "molecular clock" and estimate the date that a virus jumped species. The science doesn't back up the author's speculation.
Molecular clock? Estimate the date?

And when do they estimate this date to be?
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  #28  
Old 07-29-2009, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
Molecular clock? Estimate the date?

And when do they estimate this date to be?
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2...arlier-thought

Quote:
PARIS: The AIDS virus, previously thought to have been transmitted from chimps to humans in the 1930s, may have leapt the species barrier more than a century ago in west-central Africa.

Analysis of tissues preserved by doctors in the colonial-era Belgian Congo shows that the most pervasive strain of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) began spreading among humans at some point between 1884 and 1924.

"The diversification of HIV-1 in west-central Africa occurred long before the recognised AIDS pandemic," scientists behind the research announced today in the British science journal Nature.

Molecular clock

AIDS first came to public notice in 1981, when U.S. doctors noted an unusual cluster of deaths among young homosexuals in California and New York. It has since killed at least 25 million people, and 33 million others are living with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS by destroying immune cells.

Epidemiologists trying to date the history of HIV have until now been limited to only one laboratory source that long precedes the detected start of the outbreak. This is a now-legendary blood sample called 'ZR59', which was taken in 1959 from a patient in Leopoldville, now Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of Congo (previously Belgian Congo).

HIV is highly mutating virus, with as much as one per cent of its genome diverging per year. This rate of mutation gives rise to a measurement called a 'molecular clock', a timescale at which the HIV deviates from previous strains and from its animal ancestor, the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV).

New clue

By this calculation, HIV began to spread among humans before 1940, according to ZR59's genes. Now, though, another precious piece of the jigsaw has emerged.

It is a piece of lymph node tissue that was taken for a biopsy from a woman in Kinshasa in 1960 and preserved in a bed of paraffin wax. It was found in the archives of the Anatomy Department at the University of Kinshasa.

As they report in Nature an international team of sleuths pieced together the genetic sequence of the virus the sub-group M of HIV-1 and then compared telltale regions between ZR59 and the second sample, DRC60.

The research was led by Michael Worobey of the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona in Tucson, USA.

His team found a significant divergence between the two genetic regions, and calculated that this gap must have taken around 40 years to evolve from a common viral ancestor.
Unfortunately, many of the scientific journals are subscription-based and require a password and can't be linked; however, you could research it at a library. The story linked above describes the research. You could get the actual Nature article at the library.
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  #29  
Old 07-29-2009, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
Some don't credit the vaccines with the steep drop in the spread of communicable diseases as much as education. They were taking drastic other measures and were beginning to understand how these things were spread and how to prevent it. I may look into that when I get time.

I do know that vaccines have spread diseases from monkeys to humans.


edit: Just a little tid bit if your interested, I know a couple of families who don't get their children vaccinated and they are medical doctors.
Please look into it. Please look at the public health data. The internet allows you to look up the number of cases and deaths per year in the U.S. back for several decades. You can see when the vaccine was introduced and how the number of cases dramatically declined after that time. The decline is not coincidental. Scientists can demonstrate a dramatic increase in pathogen-specific immunoglobulin and can demonstrate T-cell response.

There is consensus that HIV came from Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV); however, it is thought it jumped species due to the bushmeat trade. It is not thought to be related to vaccines (although, there has been some evidence that HIV might have been spread more widely in third world countries because needles were reused because the countries were so poor)

I suspect the "doctors" are naturopaths. Naturopaths are not M.D.s. Please clarify.
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  #30  
Old 07-29-2009, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Play The Man
Please look into it. Please look at the public health data. The internet allows you to look up the number of cases and deaths per year in the U.S. back for several decades. You can see when the vaccine was introduced and how the number of cases dramatically declined after that time. The decline is not coincidental. Scientists can demonstrate a dramatic increase in pathogen-specific immunoglobulin and can demonstrate T-cell response.
You say the number of cases declined after the vaccinations began? NOT true in some cases, it was quite the opposite. However, I have no doubt that the number of death cases did decline.


I have looked into a bit. There have been other diseases that declined and faded out without a vaccine.



I get my kids vaccinated to err on the side of caution. Just not sure how much belief I have in their efficiency.
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