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Old 07-21-2009, 02:57 AM
adamt adamt is offline
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Default insurance--warning really long and might induce critical thinking

I thought i might bring what could be a lively debate. I suppose I might be the only one to take a stand against while everyone else is for or mostly for it. I am not looking to argue but to actually hash out and end up with something applicable to life stemming from a Godly discussion.

I truly would like to be persuaed from what i believe if that would be the correct way to do, but I am cursed with the gift of critical thinking and have formed my own opinion on this and am "testing" it against you all. To see if their are cracks in my belief.

I have gained a certain amount of respect for some of the people that input on here so I hope this doesn't get overlooked and noone "argues" with me. I have always found tyburns input interesting and i am very curious as to what nateR thinks and also i am VERY curious about what mark hughes might say if he were to ever visit this thread, i have enjoyed reading some of his earlier discussions.

Please don't think of me as insane, but keep an open mind when i humbly try to convey my thoughts! I am just a simple farmer who loves hunting and fishing,with--as you can soon see-- a bigger love for God, and my family.

now on to my thoughts.....

Lets assume we all agree on the basic Godly premise that all we have is Godís, given to us by God, kept in our possession by God and we should manage it to Godís glory. I donít personally agree with tithe, as I believe all I have is Godís so why limit it to 10%, which I agree that belief could be severely eschewed and used to justify not giving at all but we wonít talk about that in this thread. I also believe using Godís money to raise a family is one of the most important purposes in life.

Now on to insurance. I am as contrary to most Christians let alone people that I can get on this issue. My stance on this issue is extreme, yes, as it places the full burden on God. I understand the need for man to plan and work to fulfill Godís will and to do well on this earth for himself and God and that just because we are His servants donít mean He is going to take care of everything for us. But there has to be a line drawn on what men are responsible for and what God is responsible for in our lives.

First things first. Insurance is a business. BIG business. Big MONEY MAKING business. They are not the church, they are not non-profit. I donít believe they honestly care about people, no matter what they might tell you, or your agent might actually believe personally, the policymakers at the insurance companies are in it to make money, not to help you.

Insurance companies prey on peopleís fear of the unknown. What might happen? What will they do if said disaster happens? If you ask me that is pretty low right there. Fortunately I serve a God that knows what is going to happen and I donít have to worry about not personally knowing what will happen. Insurance companies also play the odds. Insurance is gambling. Gambling against yourself and God. Lets take a look at a life insurance.

Say I am a healthy, never smoked, nonsmoking, non drinking 25 year old male in the middle of Iowa, with a perfect driving history. I need a life insurance policy for $250,000.00. Say my premium will cost me $175.00 per year. That is saying that the odds of me dying are 175 to 250,000. Or 175 out of 250,000. So out of every healthy white male in the middle of iowa who drives safe, with healthy relatives, who doesnít engage in extreme sports, doesnít scuba dive, no dui tickets, doesnít drink, never smoked, doesnít fly in airplanes, hasnít and doesnít plan on traveling outside of the usa, and all around simple guy, the odds of me dying are about 1 in 1429, or 175 in 250,000. And yes they asked me (when I checked into life insurance ) about all the above, my height and weight, my family medical history, if I do anything extreme or dangerous, if I fly in airplanes, if I travel or am going to travel outside the us, my driving history and nicotine use. Everything. Had I been one to do those sort of things the odds of me dying would be higher, therefore my premium higher. When I get older, my premium will be higher. I wonder what a 100 year old man who has smoked three packs a day since he was 12 and skydives in North Korea for a living would cost to insure? The odds of him dying would be closer to 1:1 in a given year, so his premium wouldnít be far from 250,000 on a 250000 dollar policy. Now go back to my previous example. The insurance company is betting 250,000 that I wonít die this year. I am betting 175 that I will. The only way for me to win that bet is to die. Now considering the fact that I pray for good health and safety and believe that God will bless me, I am betting against God with HIS money!! We do believe that we are just stewards of all that God has given us right? I am betting that God will let me die. Not only are the odds stupid and in favor of --- and Iíll steal a gambling term---ďthe houseĒ, but I am betting against myself and telling God that Ėďhey, I know I prayed this morning for safety and blessing and I say I have faith in you but just in case you mess up today or canít handle some situation that comes along, I am going to take YOUR money that I should be using to bring YOU glory and I am going to give it to a greedy insurance company and let THEM be my safety net. I trust you and everything and all that good jazz Lord but I have to be certain me and my family will be taken care of. And I donít know if you can do that as well as an insurance companyĒ Not to mention that not only is our money his, but our talents are as well. Furthermore our bodies are, and our bodies are just earthly vessels of our souls, just shells. They too are on loan from God and we are responsible for the stewardship and good management of them but not the insuarance of them. That is still up to God, itís His body. His temple. I believe in assurance, not insurance. Do you have to carry the insurance on your company vehicle? No but you have to treat it decently. You take care of it and the final liability is the companies. That is how I feel about my shell, er um my body. It's actually God's to take care of. Faith is evidenced by your actions. What does it say about your faith when you pray, and turn right around and act as if your prayer meant nothing, that it couldnít possibly be answered, and you need to have a backup plan called insurance. And you put your faith in man, not God. In doctors, not God. Do you not realize the magnitude of God. Do you doubt His ability to keep you safe and healthy or to heal you. Do you doubt His ability to provide in hard times? Do you think He couldnít heal or provide money for care? Take a look at Psalm 50. Read the whole thing but if you can't get your Bible and look it up right now I will put a little incerpt here for you.

9 I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the creatures of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.


Did you catch that? He owns the cattle on a thousand hills, I think He could manage to provide for you and your family. He created you, I think He could manage to keep you alive and well.
Why would God keep you safe and healthy if you donít hold up your end of the bargain by trusting Him and allowing Him to provide for you. Do you not read the promises in His Word? If I told my family that I will be responsible for supper tonight. All they have to do is trust me. I will have it under control, we will eat at 6:00 tonight. Guaranteed. Donít be late all you have to do is show up. I have planned on getting everyoneís favorite meal. Each person individually getting their all time favorite food. Then at 5:58 as I walked into the house with each personís preferred dish, I discover that my wife has made all the kids sandwiches at 5:45, because they were getting a little hungry and it didnít look like I would be able to get everything done by 6:00. What does that do for my desire to plan that surprise again? What does it do for my effort, when everyone is already full of mediocre food and not able to indulge in their feast? What if I had known about that before I made the effort to gather the food? Do you think I would have wasted my time doing that, if I knew that it would all go to waste. God knows you donít trust Him enough to let Him bless you and keep you, so why should He. He knows you have put your faith, which is evidenced by your action of paying them His money every month, in insurance, even health insurance. I doubt He will make the effort to hold up His end of the deal, when you wonít even be in a situation to accept it. Why should He, youíve done slapped Him in the face by turning your back on Him, then turned back around and slapped Him again by using His money to do it!!!

WHY would I want to take 175.00 of Godís money and bet that I am going to die. I dare you to put into the offering plate at church the same amount you do the insurance manís pockets. I dare you to give 175.00 more this year at church or otherwise directly to Godís work. Maybe then the church could be used of God to support people and families instead of insurance companies, and you know what, when a church supports a hurting needing family, they get more than money to cover their bills, they get emotional and mental help and support and more importantly they get the gospel. They get their spiritual needs attended to. Isnít that the purpose of the Church? When you give to insurance you are serving the god of mammon, not the God of the Universe. What are your motives for insurance? Purely materialistic, purely mammon and money driven. Insurance doesnít prevent disease like God can--- and will if you let Him. Insurance only gives promises of money. And it is a binky(yeah thatís right, something to soothe and pacify but has no real substance-- just like what we call our babies pacifiers, binkies) to the scared and faithless of the world, who worry over money and bow to the god of mammon.


Okay i got a little heated there but i hope i didn't get too harsh. so what do you think?
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:25 AM
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NateR NateR is offline
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I agree with you. The only insurance I have is the state minimum requirement that I need to drive my car. I don't have any health insurance, I don't want it. The only life insurance I've ever had was when I was in the military; but I believe even that was a scam because I never died once while I was in the Army, so shouldn't I have gotten ALL of that money back when I got out of the Army?

It's the same with car insurance. If I go an entire year without ever using my car insurance, then shouldn't I get that money back?

I might actually be a little more extreme in my beliefs than you, because I'm not even sure that Christians should have savings accounts, IRAs, 401k plans, etc. That all just sounds too much like "storing up treasures here on earth" which Jesus strongly warned against.

I do like your analogy that insurance is essentially betting against GOD.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:05 AM
Chuck
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Adam you're certainly passionate about what you believe but unfortunately your math as well as your logic is flawed.

Nate.... how do you see insurance as betting against God? I don't understand..

Both of your opinions are common and understandable but based more on ignorance then fact. To have or not have various forms of insurance is obviously a right that we all have to exercise but to not have any is simply careless or selfish... perhaps both IMO.

Airbags, seat belts, roll cages, motorcycle helmets, life jackets.... all forms of insurance... protecting yourself against a risk... no different then a policy...

Would you ever think of returning a motorcycle helmet after owning it for a year because you never crashed? A life jacket after a boat trip because you didn't drown?

You insure yourself against a risk that is very real.. the product whether it's a policy or a life jacket is there to protect you against that risk. The fact that you don't use it doesn't negate it's legitimacy, value or purpose.

And FYI there are many non-profit insurance companies in the US. I don't believe it's a valid point but I just thought I would mention it.

Adam if I have time tomorrow I'll respond to your post in a little more detail...
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:10 AM
Buzzard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
I agree with you. The only insurance I have is the state minimum requirement that I need to drive my car. I don't have any health insurance, I don't want it. The only life insurance I've ever had was when I was in the military; but I believe even that was a scam because I never died once while I was in the Army, so shouldn't I have gotten ALL of that money back when I got out of the Army?

It's the same with car insurance. If I go an entire year without ever using my car insurance, then shouldn't I get that money back?

I might actually be a little more extreme in my beliefs than you, because I'm not even sure that Christians should have savings accounts, IRAs, 401k plans, etc. That all just sounds too much like "storing up treasures here on earth" which Jesus strongly warned against.

I do like your analogy that insurance is essentially betting against GOD.
Do you not have health insurance because you can't afford it?

What will you do if you get sick and have an extended stay in the hospital racking up a $250,000 bill? Will you repay it or declare bankruptcy, sticking your debt on the American taxpayers?

Stuff like that happens. I have a friend with no insurance who has racked up a $300,000 bill. When he finally declares bankruptcy, you and I will be paying for it.

Another friend of mine has a daughter that owes the hospital where she works big time money for bills related to her infant son. She brings home only $6.00 a paycheck because they have garnished her wages. She can't declare bankruptcy because she doesn't have the $1,500 fee for the lawyers.

I'm fortunate enough to have health insurance right now, and hope to always have it. If I didn't, I would be broke and a burden on our overtaxed system.

Good luck and good health to you.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:13 AM
Chuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
Do you not have health insurance because you can't afford it?

What will you do if you get sick and have an extended stay in the hospital racking up a $250,000 bill? Will you repay it or declare bankruptcy, sticking your debt on the American taxpayers?

Stuff like that happens. I have a friend with no insurance who has racked up a $300,000 bill. When he finally declares bankruptcy, you and I will be paying for it.

Another friend of mine has a daughter that owes the hospital where she works big time money for bills related to her infant son. She brings home only $6.00 a paycheck because they have garnished her wages. She can't declare bankruptcy because she doesn't have the $1,500 fee for the lawyers.

I'm fortunate enough to have health insurance right now, and hope to always have it. If I didn't, I would be broke and a burden on our overtaxed system.

Good luck and good health to you.
Excellent point... that would be the "careless" part I referred to in my last post....
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:42 AM
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NateR NateR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
Do you not have health insurance because you can't afford it?

What will you do if you get sick and have an extended stay in the hospital racking up a $250,000 bill? Will you repay it or declare bankruptcy, sticking your debt on the American taxpayers?

Stuff like that happens. I have a friend with no insurance who has racked up a $300,000 bill. When he finally declares bankruptcy, you and I will be paying for it.

Another friend of mine has a daughter that owes the hospital where she works big time money for bills related to her infant son. She brings home only $6.00 a paycheck because they have garnished her wages. She can't declare bankruptcy because she doesn't have the $1,500 fee for the lawyers.

I'm fortunate enough to have health insurance right now, and hope to always have it. If I didn't, I would be broke and a burden on our overtaxed system.

Good luck and good health to you.
No, because if I could afford health insurance, I still wouldn't buy it.

Now that I think about it, as a veteran, I technically do have health insurance with the VA; but I have never once even considered using it in the 7 years that I have been out of the military. I had actually forgotten about that.

I've trusted GOD to keep me healthy for the last 7 years and I've never had a major medical problem. Of course, like everyone, I have little things that bug me now and then, but they are no more than inconveniences and I'm not one of those people that runs to the doctor every time I get a sniffle. I'm also not a pill popper so I try to avoid OTC and prescription medicine (with the only exceptions being Vicks Vaporub, eye drops and the occasional antacid).

If I feel a cold coming on, then I just up my vitamin C intake, get extra rest and drink plenty of water. So far it's worked extremely well in that I've never been sick for longer than 3 days over the last decade.

If I were to contract a major illness like cancer, then I guess I would check with the VA to make sure that it wasn't caused by something I was exposed to in the in Army; then go from there. However, I wouldn't want to become a burden on anyone else financially, so I doubt I would accept extensive treatment. The way I see it, I choose to not have health insurance, so I need to accept the consequences of that choice if something major does go wrong.

I do know that I've most likely inherited a heart problem from my dad and I'm not looking forward to my 50s if my dad's life is anything to go by. He had a crimped artery next to his heart and I'm showing some of the same symptoms that he had. However, I think the best thing I can do right now is just live as healthy as I can... within reason, of course. I try to eat healthy, I don't smoke and I rarely drink alcohol.

My biological grandfather, on my dad's side, died at the age of 30 from this heart condition; but that was mainly because he was an alcoholic. My dad started having a series of heart attacks when he turned 50, but he's lived his entire life eating high-fat, fried foods and also suffers from a broken neck that cuts off some circulation to the left side of his body. So I figure that, if I lose weight and get myself back down under 200 pounds, and try to eat healthier, and stay away from too much alcohol, then I should be fine. Of course that doesn't eliminate the unpredictable, like my dad getting hit by a drunk driver resulting in his broken neck. But stuff like that you can only leave in GOD's hands.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:44 AM
Chris F
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Lets see here. 2 years ago Chemotherapy and other treatments cost me 85,000 grand. Had I no insurance I'd never be a home or new car owner and would be bound by debt for my entire life. What my insurance (it was not the greatest coverege) did not cover 25,000. God did. Somehow the hospital had a donation that covered my bill. I still have no clue how other then God is faithful. Insurance is not anti trust in God. Just good stewardship.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:50 AM
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NateR NateR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
Adam you're certainly passionate about what you believe but unfortunately your math as well as your logic is flawed.

Nate.... how do you see insurance as betting against God? I don't understand..

Both of your opinions are common and understandable but based more on ignorance then fact. To have or not have various forms of insurance is obviously a right that we all have to exercise but to not have any is simply careless or selfish... perhaps both IMO.

Airbags, seat belts, roll cages, motorcycle helmets, life jackets.... all forms of insurance... protecting yourself against a risk... no different then a policy...

Would you ever think of returning a motorcycle helmet after owning it for a year because you never crashed? A life jacket after a boat trip because you didn't drown?

You insure yourself against a risk that is very real.. the product whether it's a policy or a life jacket is there to protect you against that risk. The fact that you don't use it doesn't negate it's legitimacy, value or purpose.

And FYI there are many non-profit insurance companies in the US. I don't believe it's a valid point but I just thought I would mention it.

Adam if I have time tomorrow I'll respond to your post in a little more detail...
Well, there is a difference there. A life vest is a possession. Something that you buy once and should never have to buy again. Insurance is more of a promise than a possession. You're essentially paying someone else for their promise to help you if something bad happens.

Buying insurance and buying safety equipment are two very different things.
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:00 AM
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Nate, it is so crazy how much this sounds like my boyfriend. The part about your 50's, your father's heart problems, not going to the doctor, etc. We just had this conversation the other night!! Haha.

His stance against medical care mainly comes from his being a paramedic for 8years and knowing that no matter what, when your time comes, it's your time. Hospitals, insurance companies, drug companies, etc., just want your money. Keeping your alive is in their best interest. His opinion of course. And that is where he had a problem with his faith. How can you save someone when it was so obvious God was calling them home? He had to step away from being a medic, as much as he hated giving up his dream job.
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:01 AM
Chris F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
Well, there is a difference there. A life vest is a possession. Something that you buy once and should never have to buy again. Insurance is more of a promise than a possession. You're essentially paying someone else for their promise to help you if something bad happens.

Buying insurance and buying safety equipment are two very different things.
I look more at it as a savings account. You put some money down for when you need to see a dr, dentist, etc. I think if the doctor owuld have kept the insurance people out of the mix then health care cost would be a lot lower. But since they did it is pretty much a necessity in this day and age.

I inherited some pretty cruddy genes, I destroyed my body as a young person with 4 sports a year then a few years as a professional wrestler. Then the worst happen I became a preacher and the devil has been trying to kill me since. I just got insurance this month from my new job. My deductablie is 1500 which will be met my first trip because my cancer scans are 7000 dollars a year. So I am more then happy to give 40 a month then to pay 10,000 a year out of pocket.
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