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  #31  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by NateR
Dave, you pay people based on relevant skills, intelligence required by their job and the amount of education they have that specifically applies to that job.

Nobody has to get a college scholarship to learn how to stock vegetables in a grocery store. You don't even need a high school diploma to do that. Which is why there are so many kids working these kinds of jobs in America and, if all of them got fired today, they would be easily replaced before the end of the week. Hence, the low pay.

That's the difference between skilled and unskilled labor.

I'm surprised that someone like you would be so quick to try to dismiss the value of education in the workplace.
Thats partly because I'm extremely educated....and look where its got me.

See Education doesnt always teach you skills that are useful in the workplace, neither can you always get that calibre job that you are qualified to. I have 10 GCSEs, 1 Alevel, 1 Advanced GNVQ, One Degree, and creditations in a Masters. With the proliferation of degrees in England now, they are begining to lose their worth. At one time, having a degree made you a scholar...now every working class moron probably has a degree to his name...what differentiates people now is experience...but you cant get job experience without starting at the bottom.

I was doing well in the church til I got forced out.

I have no intention of staying at ASDA, but I dont exactly know which field I want to be in, and its vital I show I can hold down a job...any job...I was going to leave last year...but then something happened in a place called Wall Street, and I discovered even if my job is low paid and im grossly over qualified...it is a safe job. Businesses in this country collapsed...now is not the time to be making unneeded risks. Wal-Mart is not really effected by whats going on, they are that mass, they have an internal economy that rivals small european governments! Short of them pulling out of England and my chain, I'm safer to stay where I am.

In the meantime I tried to get involved with Cage Gladiators, a promotion in Liverpool...not sure how many of you have taken notice of the side stuff that I've been working on. Published by a leading Magazine in this country for MMA, not once, but four times in the last year, multiple publishing online....and Liverpool was looking like a very real move.


...last month Cage Gladiators collapsed. Good job I didnt move earlier I suppose. Some would look at it as a frustrating setback...others would say its CV worthy material and all good experience...meanwhile I continue my correspondance with the new Promotion in Hull which is fronted by a clothing company...and am due to check out a promotion that should see the debut of a friend of mine, in the north of England before my States Tour...which, btw, is taking some careful planning. I am travelling alone, and its not package, I have to make all the arrangements myself...plenty of people older then me in this country wouldnt have the courage to do it. They think I'm quite mad to go on holiday, abroad, alone, not even with a package tour, to see a vast majoirty of people I have never physically met, nor spoken to before. I tell them "Its okay, they are American, absolutely nothing to worry about. I tell them, that if I get into bother, all I need to is speak, and they will know I am English by my accent, and because of that, I am confident that even a stranger will help me, if I cant find the right Train Station...or get lost at the airport. I tel them...that in America people smile, say hello to one another, and are very friendly...particularly if you stay away from the bigger cities. They ask me how I know that.

I tell them of my experience with you two years ago.
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  #32  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:33 AM
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Tyburn, I really sympathize with the sentiments that you have expressed in several posts throughout this thread; however, I don't know of a way better than the free market, as cold and unfeeling as it is, to assign value for work. The free market gets it wrong a lot of the time - rap music stars making millions while teachers and soldiers make very modest incomes; however, most other systems are even worse. Utopian communities usually don't last one generation. The past century witnessed the largest body count in history mostly due to the communist theories (and practice) of Marx. Western European socialism likely will not last through this century due to demographic collapse - there will not be enough 20 and 30 year-olds working to support the welfare state and the healthcare and pension costs of the more numerous elderly (unless of course there is even more massive immigration, which will likely destroy the system by other, more sinister, means). I find it ironic that you state that you are a royalist. A strong monarchy has a whole class of people given huge amounts of wealth for no other reason than the circumstances of their birth. At least a meritocracy awards high achievers for their hard work, talent or sacrifice. A monarchy gives you an inbred incompetent like Prince Charles, using up the hard-earned resources of his subjects as he babbles on about how he wants to be his mistress's tampon!

You should study the lesson of the bucolic proverb: "When it comes to ham and eggs for breakfast, the chicken is involved; the pig is committed." Currently you are involved with a job; the committed usually are more highly rewarded. If you want to earn more money you need to risk more and get committed. Start a business - if you succeed then you reap the rewards, if you fail it is all on you. I would bet that your current position offers some element of job security, scheduled breaks, reasonable hours, etc. despite not paying as much as you would like (and probably rightly deserve). If you are truly that disappointed with your position, you should strike out on you own. If you work hard, there is a great chance that you will succeed; however, be warned, the small business owner doesn't get coffee breaks or overtime or weekends off and if the business fails you would not just lose a job, you would lose everything. If you want to stay where you are at, then do something radical: work during break-time, come early to work and stay late (unpaid if necessary), volunteer for extra responsibility, greet every customer with a salutation, etc. It might go unnoticed and unrewarded for a time; however, I would bet that in the long run it would bring rewards. In addition, if you are serious about building wealth, I would recommend a second job. Yes, your life will be difficult, but many, if not most, of the high-earners don't put in a 40 hour work-week (does Europe even work that long?), they put in 50, 60 or 70 hour work-weeks (or more).
Yes...but who wants to be a pig

I work forty Hours...they wont let me work more then that...I work the most hours of anyone on our department except for the manager, who is on a salery, so he isnt paid on an hourly basis

As for Monarchy...well...really...England isnt full of many Lords and Ladies, anymore...and those who become...are usually done so, not by the Monarchy...but by Parliament...who tends to be as corrupt as to reward large donations to their parties with peerages...and a seat in the House of Lords....

Thank GOD we are not a Republic or there would be no calling them to account without a civil war...which incidently, was such a dismall failiure, the very person who charged to get rid of the Monarch...disbanded his own government on the grounds of corruption and...the monarchy got restored.

Unbeknown to many, England DID have a Political Revolution...the only one who seems to remember it was Charles....he kinda lost his head... I wonder if there is anything in the name of a Monarch...if so...we're down the creek without a paddle...coz our Heir is called Charles...


.....Madame Guilotine (and I am not refering to a submission move there...)
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  #33  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
Thats partly because I'm extremely educated....and look where its got me.

See Education doesnt always teach you skills that are useful in the workplace, neither can you always get that calibre job that you are qualified to. I have 10 GCSEs, 1 Alevel, 1 Advanced GNVQ, One Degree, and creditations in a Masters. With the proliferation of degrees in England now, they are begining to lose their worth. At one time, having a degree made you a scholar...now every working class moron probably has a degree to his name...what differentiates people now is experience...but you cant get job experience without starting at the bottom.

I was doing well in the church til I got forced out.

I have no intention of staying at ASDA, but I dont exactly know which field I want to be in, and its vital I show I can hold down a job...any job...I was going to leave last year...but then something happened in a place called Wall Street, and I discovered even if my job is low paid and im grossly over qualified...it is a safe job. Businesses in this country collapsed...now is not the time to be making unneeded risks. Wal-Mart is not really effected by whats going on, they are that mass, they have an internal economy that rivals small european governments! Short of them pulling out of England and my chain, I'm safer to stay where I am.

In the meantime I tried to get involved with Cage Gladiators, a promotion in Liverpool...not sure how many of you have taken notice of the side stuff that I've been working on. Published by a leading Magazine in this country for MMA, not once, but four times in the last year, multiple publishing online....and Liverpool was looking like a very real move.


...last month Cage Gladiators collapsed. Good job I didnt move earlier I suppose. Some would look at it as a frustrating setback...others would say its CV worthy material and all good experience...meanwhile I continue my correspondance with the new Promotion in Hull which is fronted by a clothing company...and am due to check out a promotion that should see the debut of a friend of mine, in the north of England before my States Tour...which, btw, is taking some careful planning. I am travelling alone, and its not package, I have to make all the arrangements myself...plenty of people older then me in this country wouldnt have the courage to do it. They think I'm quite mad to go on holiday, abroad, alone, not even with a package tour, to see a vast majoirty of people I have never physically met, nor spoken to before. I tell them "Its okay, they are American, absolutely nothing to worry about. I tell them, that if I get into bother, all I need to is speak, and they will know I am English by my accent, and because of that, I am confident that even a stranger will help me, if I cant find the right Train Station...or get lost at the airport. I tel them...that in America people smile, say hello to one another, and are very friendly...particularly if you stay away from the bigger cities. They ask me how I know that.

I tell them of my experience with you two years ago.
Trust me, the MMA writing will not be in vain - even if it bears fruit indirectly. My father was told by his boss, years after he was hired, that the reason he got the job was because he mentioned at the very bottom of his resume that he had been a boy scout as a child! His education, work experience, etc. didn't clinch it for his boss - it was the fact that he had been a boy scout! Apparently, the boss admired the boy scout ethic and used his mention of the scouts as an augury that he would be the right man for the job. They both worked for the same place together for many, many years and try to keep in contact in their retirements. I am not a prophet but I would not be surprised if you get the best job of your life, whether it be in the COE or business, because the boss is a closet MMA fan and hires you because you mention the MMA writing on your CV as an afterthought.
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  #34  
Old 07-16-2009, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
Yes...but who wants to be a pig

I work forty Hours...they wont let me work more then that...I work the most hours of anyone on our department except for the manager, who is on a salery, so he isnt paid on an hourly basis
I am being serious and trying to help. Take a second job. It doesn't have to be glamorous. Deliver pizzas for 10 hours per week. If you can clear an extra $100 in pay and tips per week and do it for two years, you will have an extra $10,000. You can use that to start up a small business. Alternatively, put the $10,000 in the stock market (no I am not crazy, one good thing about the bad economy is that some good stocks are currently dirt cheap) and hold it there for retirement. If you are in your late 20s and retire in your late 60s, that relatively small amount of money, assuming a reasonable, but not spectacular, growth rate, will have grown, thanks to the magic of compounding, to $500,000 (of course who knows how much that will buy in 40 years . . . and likely your government will have a 95% capital gains tax by that time; however, you get my meaning)
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  #35  
Old 07-16-2009, 04:40 PM
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By "enhanced" I meant...that some people could persue their freedoms even more then intended...not that the persuit of those freedoms beyond those which first considered was actually good.

Nathan, the vast majority of people in buisness are out to make AS MUCH money as possible...and this isnt an Americanism...this is everywhere. The Goal of Capitalism is to make as much money as possible

Most people do work to pay the bills, VERY few people love what they do for money. Most people would not go to work if they had the money to survive without it.

It is in Mans fallen nature to be selfish Nathan. Greed its one of the most prevelent sins IMHO.

You can have moralist Capitalism...but its few and far between. Thus Far I have only really found one insitution in Mixed Martial Arts whose goal is to make money...be exceptionally Moral....I've found others who are willing to be moral when it suits their own persuit.

its a nasty world out there Nathan it makes me sad and depressed...and fearful
I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but this post is so full of BS, Dave! You truly don't under Captialism. You are talking about exceptions to the rules here and NOT the norms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn

Nathan, the vast majority of people in buisness are out to make AS MUCH money as possible...and this isnt an Americanism...this is everywhere. The Goal of Capitalism is to make as much money as possible
This may be true in some cases but MOST people will not sacrifice some things for money. For example, I could go to night shift, strictly weekends, or do travel nursing and make more money but I don't because it would take away from time with my family.

I could move my whole family to a different location and make more $$. Hubby would lose his job. He could find another but he is invested emotionally where he works. Almost EVERYONE I know I can give you an example of where they chose something else besides MORE money.



Quote:
Most people do work to pay the bills, VERY few people love what they do for money. Most people would not go to work if they had the money to survive without it.
Again, how many people do you know that don't work because they have enough money to survive? Even millionaires that don't have to? They all DO something. You will find that People who choose NOT to work, it usually isn't about money. It is about laziness and lack of motivation.


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It is in Mans fallen nature to be selfish Nathan. Greed its one of the most prevelent sins IMHO.
I think you sometimes confuse selfishness and self preservation. NOT always a bad thing.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:48 PM
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You get paid a standard rate, set by your company (substitute the word company with government here) , in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!
Isn't that socialism?
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NateR
Dave, you pay people based on relevant skills, intelligence required by their job and the amount of education they have that specifically applies to that job.

Nobody has to get a college scholarship to learn how to stock vegetables in a grocery store. You don't even need a high school diploma to do that. Which is why there are so many kids working these kinds of jobs in America and, if all of them got fired today, they would be easily replaced before the end of the week. Hence, the low pay.

That's the difference between skilled and unskilled labor.

I'm surprised that someone like you would be so quick to try to dismiss the value of education in the workplace.
They probaly don't value their education because it's free.

Well, unless you start getting rich. Then you have to pay it back.



Quote:
With the proliferation of degrees in England now, they are begining to lose their worth. At one time, having a degree made you a scholar...now every working class moron probably has a degree to his name...what differentiates people now is experience...but you cant get job experience without starting at the bottom.

Last edited by Neezar; 07-16-2009 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
1) I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but this post is so full of BS, Dave! You truly don't under Captialism. You are talking about exceptions to the rules here and NOT the norms.



2) This may be true in some cases but MOST people will not sacrifice some things for money. For example, I could go to night shift, strictly weekends, or do travel nursing and make more money but I don't because it would take away from time with my family.

I could move my whole family to a different location and make more $$. Hubby would lose his job. He could find another but he is invested emotionally where he works. Almost EVERYONE I know I can give you an example of where they chose something else besides MORE money.





3) Again, how many people do you know that don't work because they have enough money to survive? Even millionaires that don't have to? They all DO something. You will find that People who choose NOT to work, it usually isn't about money. It is about laziness and lack of motivation.




4) I think you sometimes confuse selfishness and self preservation. NOT always a bad thing.
1) No, actually, this is the practicalities of working some ideal that relies on a sense of moral aptitude...in an age where the vast moajority of people dont have any. You know that. You just argue for the sake of arguing with me

2) Denise...most of the people in high management live for their jobs. Those who are incontrol of the "making money" bit, are not those people who are regular workers. I'm not talking about the position of a single Nurse...I'm talking about those who probably OWN the Hospital.

Those are the people who make decisions that influence thousands of people. In the world of banking, a group of directors, multi-millionaires verify a new procedure...a few years later almost everyone in the entire western world has seen the effects of a verra poor decision indeed. Some Director in ASDA decides without visiting the store to dump a particular supplier...and all the customers go up in arms because they cant buy whatever product it is that we dont sell anymore.

Its the decision making people that are leading capitalism. The rest of us do what we are told under them. Our singular effort wont change anything...but a single decision THEY make can have huge ramifications.

3) Usually they travel to begin with. Then they usually start up whatever business it is they want to work in that brings them the most happiness. That makes them fall into the category of people who, once their business is running, can make decisions which have terrific effects. Money has bought them the opportunity to skip climbing the ladder.

4) I'm not confusing anything.
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:48 PM
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Isn't that socialism?
Denise...they pay everyone who isnt managers the same hourly rate...unless they are on probabtion.

The managers get paid the same on a salary

The senior Managers get paid on a salary

Dont all the nurses at the same level of qualification in your hospital get paid the same wage (or hourly ammount) ????

Socialism, would be that everyone in the entire organisation, managers, senior managers, collegues, all got paid exactly the same...not the same ammount per hour...but the same amount regardless of hours worked. A universal non-time based salery.

Honnestly, you guys have no real idea what Communism even is. You guys think Barack Obama is a communist
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:52 PM
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They probaly don't value their education because it's free.

Well, unless you start getting rich. Then you have to pay it back.
You have to pay to send your children to school

In England its illegal to pull a child out of school Home tuition as far as I'm aware simply doesnt happen in this country.

...and the Degrees are not free...as soon as you earn a reasonable wage according to the government, which is MORE then what i'm being paid...you have to pay it all back plus interest. Course if you never make a reasonable wage (the Government have set it quite low so that they can be sure most people will get a high enough wage to start paying it back) you never have to pay it back...because they dont deem you ABLE to pay it back.
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