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  #11  
Old 07-15-2009, 07:29 AM
KENTUCKYREDBONE
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To me the goal of Capitalism is to get paid what your work is worth! In others words if you build more houses than your neighbor builds you should get paid more. Now that's providing you followed the rules and everything else is equal. Lets look at it a different way. Under Capitalism a Brian surgeon should make more than I do for unloading trucks! Why? Cause the Brian surgeon is so highly skilled and rare that he's worth it. What your seeing with the folks attacking those who disagree with Obama is more like Tyranny and Communism than Capitalism. The purpose of law in a Capitalistic society is supposed to be make everyone play by the same rules!
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  #12  
Old 07-15-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KENTUCKYREDBONE
To me the goal of Capitalism is to get paid what your work is worth! In others words if you build more houses than your neighbor builds you should get paid more. Now that's providing you followed the rules and everything else is equal. Lets look at it a different way. Under Capitalism a Brian surgeon should make more than I do for unloading trucks! Why? Cause the Brian surgeon is so highly skilled and rare that he's worth it. What your seeing with the folks attacking those who disagree with Obama is more like Tyranny and Communism than Capitalism. The purpose of law in a Capitalistic society is supposed to be make everyone play by the same rules!
But the thing is that, I suspect you find brian surgeons are paid more then they are worth, and you are payed less.

See you then get bankers claiming that because they are highly skilled and work in a very stressful environment they are STILL dispite the economy, STILL worth thousands in Bonus....people like me who work for Wal-Mart...enmass our job is very important...but indivudally, not so much...so we get paid sometimes less then we can really live on.
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:25 PM
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But the thing is that, I suspect you find brian surgeons are paid more then they are worth, and you are payed less.
So. Then you shop around and find one cheaper. You CAN do that here in the US. You can actually shop around and bargain with them over the price. You *gasp* get to choose!



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Originally Posted by Tyburn
See you then get bankers claiming that because they are highly skilled and work in a very stressful environment they are STILL dispite the economy, STILL worth thousands in Bonus....people like me who work for Wal-Mart...enmass our job is very important...but indivudally, not so much...so we get paid sometimes less then we can really live on.
That is actually the beauty of it! You can go to school and be that banker. Not happy with your pay? Want a better paying job? Then YOU get to do something about it. You...... get to choose!



p.s. Blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make yours burn brighter. (In other words reducing their pay still isn't going to increase yours.)
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
p.s. Blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make yours burn brighter. (In other words reducing their pay still isn't going to increase yours.)
Exactly, the solution to poverty is not to create more poor people. Which is exactly what all these government social programs do.

If you don't like your job or your paycheck, then you go get the education or training required to get a better job with better pay. It's as easy as that if you live in a free country. If you can't afford the education, then just take the initiative to teach yourself.
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
So. Then you shop around and find one cheaper. You CAN do that here in the US. You can actually shop around and bargain with them over the price. You *gasp* get to choose!





That is actually the beauty of it! You can go to school and be that banker. Not happy with your pay? Want a better paying job? Then YOU get to do something about it. You...... get to choose!



p.s. Blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make yours burn brighter. (In other words reducing their pay still isn't going to increase yours.)
How about they just pay everyone what they are actually worth?

I'm not saying reduce the bankers pay, I'm saying increase the wage on manual labourers...where would you be without the person who actually stocked, or ordered, the stuff you buy from the supermarket?

unless you grow your own and can be entirely selfsufficent, then you relay on those people. that makes them worth more.
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
How about they just pay everyone what they are actually worth?

I'm not saying reduce the bankers pay, I'm saying increase the wage on manual labourers...where would you be without the person who actually stocked, or ordered, the stuff you buy from the supermarket?

unless you grow your own and can be entirely selfsufficent, then you relay on those people. that makes them worth more.
Well, that doesn't really work in the real world, because how do you determine what an individual is worth and who makes that determination?

In a capitalist system, the manual laborer's work ethic, expertise and integrity is what determines how much he gets paid. The system is designed to promote good workers above bad workers.

If a good worker is paid too little, then he will likely move elsewhere for a better job or go into business for himself. If a bad worker is paid too much, then his employers lose money or, in the case of the self-employed, word of mouth from dissatisfied customers will prevent him from getting further work.

So honesty, knowledge, and work ethic are what determine who is worth what in the free market.

In a government run system or unionized job field, bad workers are paid just as much as good workers and companies lose money, forcing lay-offs or bankruptcy, thus increasing the unemployment rate. When the government steps in and raises the minimum wage, it crushes small businesses. Because a small "mom and pop" store, that may only be able to afford 3 employees, will suddenly only be able to afford 2 employees. So raising minimum wage increases unemployment. Many claim that higher minimum wages help people who work for big corporations, but most of those companies pay above minimum wage salaries anyway.

Let's say you need a plumber to repair all of the old pipes in your home. A unionized or government run system would be working under the assumption that all plumbers are created equal. However, anyone who has actually hired a plumber knows for a fact that that is NOT the case. Some might be so inept or inexperienced that they actually do more damage to your home. A free market system is designed to root out the bad and promote the good. Is the system perfect? Not at all, but it is much better than the alternative.
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Old 07-15-2009, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NateR
Well, that doesn't really work in the real world, because how do you determine what an individual is worth and who makes that determination?

In a capitalist system, the manual laborer's work ethic, expertise and integrity is what determines how much he gets paid. The system is designed to promote good workers above bad workers.

If a good worker is paid too little, then he will likely move elsewhere for a better job or go into business for himself. If a bad worker is paid too much, then his employers lose money or

So honesty, knowledge, and work ethic are what determine who is worth what in the free market.
.
Well, I dont know about "the real world" but since I do work for one of the worlds largest retailers...perhaps I should inform you that, THAT, doesnt work.

It doesnt work due to work place politics. The management dont want hard workers, what they want is tantamount to slavery. Work hard, and rather then reward you, they will expect that extra mile to be attained each and every moment of your working life.

As for progression. Well some of the best collegues in the store, are those who have worked for twenty five years. They will never be managers because the management system is not designed for hard workers Nathan, its designed for those who can carry out the orders of the senior management, and keep an unreasonable attainment level affloat. They dont want people who can think for themselves your not paid to think. your paid to follow orders

Work for a big enough company, and you couldnt lose them true money if you tried incidently...you're expendable aswell

Depressing...but we all know where we stand

You get paid a standard rate, set by your company, in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!
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Old 07-15-2009, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
Well, I dont know about "the real world" but since I do work for one of the worlds largest retailers...perhaps I should inform you that, THAT, doesnt work.

It doesnt work due to work place politics. The management dont want hard workers, what they want is tantamount to slavery. Work hard, and rather then reward you, they will expect that extra mile to be attained each and every moment of your working life.

As for progression. Well some of the best collegues in the store, are those who have worked for twenty five years. They will never be managers because the management system is not designed for hard workers Nathan, its designed for those who can carry out the orders of the senior management, and keep an unreasonable attainment level affloat. They dont want people who can think for themselves your not paid to think. your paid to follow orders

Work for a big enough company, and you couldnt lose them true money if you tried incidently...you're expendable aswell

Depressing...but we all know where we stand

You get paid a standard rate, set by your company, in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!
Well, of course the system isn't going to work for you, it's designed for America and you live in England.

You're also comparing a system designed to promote entrepreneurism to a system that is essentially modern slavery. Of course that exists in the United States as well, but people here are free to strike out on their own anytime they want and achieve success based on their own hard work and merit. Of course it's risky and no one is guaranteed equal results, but that's what freedom is all about.
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  #19  
Old 07-15-2009, 05:35 PM
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But the thing is that, I suspect you find brian surgeons are paid more then they are worth, and you are payed less.
I am going to stick up for the brain surgeon. Before he becomes a brain surgeon, he must go through 4 years of university. After university, he must attend four years of medical school. After medical school, he must be accepted into a surgical internship (1 year). After the internship, he must be accepted into a neurosurgery residency, which is 5 years. After the residency, he may or may not subspecialize in a fellowship (1+ years). Admission to each step is incredibly competitive. Each step requires an incredible amount of sacrifice. The total bill for four years of university plus four years of medical school is easily several hundred thousand dollars. He will not have an income during the eight years of university and medical school, unless he also holds down a part-time job. It is highly likely that the neurosurgeon is $250,000 in debt (not counting the interest) before he makes one penny. During his internship and residency, he will work 80 hour weeks (used to be 100+ hours per week until reform was instituted) for years on end. No weekends off. No holidays off. His pay is lousy. His pay per hour worked during the residency would yield an hourly wage less than a teenager working the counter at McDonald's. The pay that you see quoted, will not start until he is in his mid-30's in age, at the earliest. Once he becomes a brain surgeon, he will be sued for malpractice - there was a recent survey of a large group of neurosurgeons and every single one had been sued. No matter how well he does his job, people will die and relatives will file lawsuits. For the rest of his life, he will carry a pager, to be on call at a moment's notice, to get up out of bed in the middle of the night, and evacuate blood from an accident victim's skull. Due to the poor work hours, he will likely be divorced (studies show high rates of divorce) If you still think he is overpaid, then apply for the job, because for some reason there is a shortage of them - I guess not many people like the easy money.
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  #20  
Old 07-15-2009, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
Well, I dont know about "the real world" but since I do work for one of the worlds largest retailers...perhaps I should inform you that, THAT, doesnt work.

It doesnt work due to work place politics. The management dont want hard workers, what they want is tantamount to slavery. Work hard, and rather then reward you, they will expect that extra mile to be attained each and every moment of your working life.

As for progression. Well some of the best collegues in the store, are those who have worked for twenty five years. They will never be managers because the management system is not designed for hard workers Nathan, its designed for those who can carry out the orders of the senior management, and keep an unreasonable attainment level affloat. They dont want people who can think for themselves your not paid to think. your paid to follow orders

Work for a big enough company, and you couldnt lose them true money if you tried incidently...you're expendable aswell

Depressing...but we all know where we stand

You get paid a standard rate, set by your company, in order to keep them in profit, whether you work hard or not, whether you have more responsibility or not, whether you have been there for a quarter of a century, or just started yesterday. There is no distinction between those who "deserve" to be paid more. Two things piss me off at work...the fact that half the noobs who dont care a jot get waged the same as me, and the fact what little I earn is partially stolen by the government before it reaches me!
It does work. I worked fro Wal Mart started at 6.50 back in the day that was above Minimum Wage. I worked hard made myself valuable. My first review I got a 1.25 raise. 2 month later they were wanting to put me in their management training and give me a 8.00 an hour raise at the end of that training. Why? Because of hard word and initiative to learn. People say Wal Mart is greedy. But the fact is they pay well for good workers. My wife works there now and makes more then I do and I manage a restaurant right now. Now I wish I would have took them up on their offer back then.
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