Question

I guess I am going to regret doing this here, but its something I have been pondering on. I have always believed that when something challenges your view on things the best thing you can do it examine the scripture to see why you believe what you do and if it is scripturally sound.

Now here's the question, and its an age old one that has many men far greater in the Lord than I am on different sides of the debate.
People such as Martin Luther, John Calvin on one side and Charles Finney, John Wesley on the opposite.

So since I have been looking at this myself I thought I would pose the question on here.

Predestination - what do you believe???

Now I dont want an arguement, I was looking for a debate that has scripture back up on your point of view.

Keep it clean and pleasant guys

[Play The Man]

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

(Romans 8:29-30)

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

(Romans 9:10-24)

One must always be careful about just listing scripture passages. They must be considered in their context and more clear passages should illuminate less clear passages. Scripture must be considered a unified whole - it does not contradict itself.

I fall on the Lutheran/Calvinist side. I am not educated in theology or biblical languages so I don't feel qualified to engage in an adequate defense of a particular position. Here is a link to a radio show called "The White Horse Inn". It is hosted by a Reformed seminary professor, a Lutheran college professor, a Reformed pastor and a Baptist pastor. Listening to this show brought me from atheism to Christianity - yes, they are that good! If you are studying theological issues, this is an excellent resource. They are incredible defenders of the Reformation position.

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/T...n/archives.asp

This is a link to the White Horse Inn discussing the theology of Charles Finney:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYxIYQO8Xs

[Play The Man]

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1

[Tyburn]

I think it is a bit of both.

You cant have full free will and full predestination...although GOD can know everything without influencing it.

It is obvious that he does pre-ordain somethings, some circumstances...but its also true that we have freewill like no other created beings

I think GOD has a plan for all, I think they can over-rule him because he asks for our compliance rather then forces his will upon us. For Christians, once under his command, it is best to ASK about His will...so that you may follow what he has planned for you.

Does that make sense?

[Play The Man]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I think it is a bit of both.

Must it be the via media for every issue?

Perhaps, consult the works of J.I. Packer, an Anglican, for illumination on this issue.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Play The Man

Must it be the via media for every issue?

Perhaps, consult the works of J.I. Packer, an Anglican, for illumination on this issue.

Well...the True answer is...its both. Somehow GOD can ordain, and we can have free will...but that is a paradox beyond our comprehension as we see them at opposite points of the same spectrum.

I simply live my life according to the following idiom

"Pray as though everything depended on Him, Live as though everything Depended on You"

Once you dedicate yourself to GOD, once you become part of the Forces of Light, you must trust that your Soverign knows best. GOD does not work like a Republic, nor does he work like Democrasy.

GOD is a King. He works and acts like a Monarch. When one totally devotes ones life to the Will of the King, that is an ACT OF FREE WILL, when one then follows ones Battle Plan...One is being moved by The Spirit of GOD...One does what one is told, goes where one is instructed to go, GOD himself speaks through them. GOD is thus incontrol, ergo, Predestination. Its about Ballence. From Our side it appears all freewill...from His side, You either Serve Him...or you face the consiquences....There is no Declaration of Independance against King Jesus....and Incidently, there is no Freedom without being under His Command.



I'm watching Churchills Funeral on Youtube at present...LOL (did you know the first Hymn was the American Battle Hymn of the Republic? did you know Saint Pauls gave a Memorial Service to President JFK?? No...niether did I...and I worked there for two years hahahaha...did you know they only showed his introit...the rest of the videos were all the verrrrrra long walk from WH all the way to SPC? did you know he was Order of the Garter?!? Funny...because the public couldnt wait to get him out of office when the war ended, and he had a dire run as PM during the 1950s that everyone forgets...I...am not sure that he deserved to be a Member of Garter...its really reserved for Royalty...

The real question is who do you believe is sovereign Man or God. If it is God then one must believe he has predestined your life. This is why he told Job I know the very minute you will pass and come to me. God is in control and every aspect of your life is predestined by His sovereign will. I am not Calvinist I am AOG and after years of wrestling with this I came to this conclusion from years of personal study and devotion. hope this help and that's my 2 cents on this issue.

AS far as salvation. Well I believe God knows who will and will not accept His grace. But I do not believe for a second he randomly selected some to to go to heaven and some to hell. that is not supported anywhere in scripture.

Originally Posted by Chris F

The real question is who do you believe is sovereign Man or God. If it is God then one must believe he has predestined your life. This is why he told Job I know the very minute you will pass and come to me. God is in control and every aspect of your life is predestined by His sovereign will. I am not Calvinist I am AOG and after years of wrestling with this I came to this conclusion from years of personal study and devotion. hope this help and that's my 2 cents on this issue.

AS far as salvation. Well I believe God knows who will and will not accept His grace. But I do not believe for a second he randomly selected some to to go to heaven and some to hell. that is not supported anywhere in scripture.

So where does free will fit in to your belief??

[Play The Man]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Well...the True answer is...its both. Somehow GOD can ordain, and we can have free will...but that is a paradox beyond our comprehension as we see them at opposite points of the same spectrum.

I simply live my life according to the following idiom

"Pray as though everything depended on Him, Live as though everything Depended on You"

Once you dedicate yourself to GOD, once you become part of the Forces of Light, you must trust that your Soverign knows best. GOD does not work like a Republic, nor does he work like Democrasy.

GOD is a King. He works and acts like a Monarch. When one totally devotes ones life to the Will of the King, that is an ACT OF FREE WILL, when one then follows ones Battle Plan...One is being moved by The Spirit of GOD...One does what one is told, goes where one is instructed to go, GOD himself speaks through them. GOD is thus incontrol, ergo, Predestination. Its about Ballence. From Our side it appears all freewill...from His side, You either Serve Him...or you face the consiquences....There is no Declaration of Independance against King Jesus....and Incidently, there is no Freedom without being under His Command.



I'm watching Churchills Funeral on Youtube at present...LOL (did you know the first Hymn was the American Battle Hymn of the Republic? did you know Saint Pauls gave a Memorial Service to President JFK?? No...niether did I...and I worked there for two years hahahaha...did you know they only showed his introit...the rest of the videos were all the verrrrrra long walk from WH all the way to SPC? did you know he was Order of the Garter?!? Funny...because the public couldnt wait to get him out of office when the war ended, and he had a dire run as PM during the 1950s that everyone forgets...I...am not sure that he deserved to be a Member of Garter...its really reserved for Royalty...

Churchill's mother's family was American. Perhaps that is the reason for the "Battle Hymn"?

I am currently reading a book called The Prayer of The Lord by R.C. Sproul and I came to a certain paragraph and thought of you. Sproul is breaking down the Lord's prayer into its constituitive parts and the quote occurs in the part about "Thy Kingdom Come". Here is the paragraph:

"When my friend John Guest, who was a noted evangelist in England, first came to the United States in the late 1960's, his first exposure to American culture was in the city of Philadelphia. During his first couple of days there, his hosts escorted him around the city to attractions such as Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell, and they told him stories of the American Revolution to introduce him to the history of this new world he was embracing as his home. John was enjoying all of this until they went to Germantown, just outside Philadelphia, and visited an antiques store that specialized in Americana. Among the items in this shop were placards and signs that displayed some of the battle cries and slogans of the Revolutionary era, such as "No Taxation without Representation" and "Don't Tread on Me." But the placard that drew his keenest attention was one that announced with bold letters, "We Serve No Sovereign Here." John told me later: "That sign stopped me in my tracks. I had left my native land and come across the Atlantic Ocean in response to a call, a vocation to be a minister of the gospel, to proclaim the kingdom of God. But on seeing this sign, I was filled with fear and consternation. I thought, "How can I possibly preach the kingdom of God to people who have a profound aversion to sovereignty?"

This is not just a coincidence that this is coming up right now, because I have been doing a lot of reading and research on this view of theology. I have been really craving other peoples thoughts on this topic. All the Christians I know are all freewill and if you even mention predestination or try to talk about it, the gloves come off pretty fast. I used to be a staunch freewill, I choose God type, but in the last year I have submitted to the Predestination/Calvinism. I have been listening to alot of the Reform theology guys like John Piper, DA Carson, RC Sproul, Mark Driscoll, and Matt Chandler and they all have really turned my head around.

There is so much that can be said here and all I want to do is point out a book I just finished that has me completely on the predestination side. The book is called "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul. It is an amazing read and he is such a gifted teacher on this subject. He does have one chapter that talks about the freewill of man and how predestination doesn't hinder it. It's awesome. Here's a quote:

"God's grace is resistible in the sense that we can and do resist it. It is irresistible in the sense that it achieves its purpose. It brings about Gods desired effect. Thus I prefer the term effectual grace. We are speaking of the grace of regeneration. We remember that in regeneration God creates in us a desire for himself. But when we have that desire planted in us, we will continue to function as we always have functioned, making our choices according to the strongest motivation at the moment. If God gives us a desire for Christ we will act according to that desire. We will most certainly choose the object of that desire; we will choose Christ. When God makes us spiritually alive we become spiritually alive. It is not merely the possibility of becoming spiritually alive that God creates. He creates spiritual life within us. When he calls something into being, it comes into being."