Obama's birth certificate

Originally Posted by NateR

Lied or was simply mistaken? Obviously liberals are going to just assume that Bush lied because he's supposedly pure evil. But there is a difference between lying and just being wrong.

I never really paid much attention to the Patriot Act, but I did support it. I also don't recall a single Constitutional right that I had in 2001 that I don't still have right now. So I suspect the notion that it was stripping Americans of their rights was bogus. I'd be interested to see some evidence of that.

If he was mistaken I don't remember him apologizing and admitting so.

You can't?
Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Patriot Act. The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

Amendment VI: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Patriot Act. The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Patriot Act. To assist terror investigation, the government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity.

Amendment VI: ... to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Patriot act. The government may monitor conversations between attorneys and clients in federal prisons and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech

Patriot Act. The government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

Amendment VI: ... to be confronted with the witnesses against him

Patriot Act. Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. US citizens (labeled "unlawful combatants") have been held incommunicado and refused attorneys.

So there go your....
Right to liberty:
Freedom of speech:
Right to legal representation:
Right to a speedy and public trial:
Freedom of association:
Freedom from unreasonable searches:

*shrug* I suppose a lot of people don't care about "freedom" because it isn't effecting them. Or they take a stance like, "if you're not doing anything wrong, them why are you worried about it". Sad.

Originally Posted by Neezar

I would love to hear more on this. What do you mean 'that we had no say in'? Have you had any say in any bills passed? Did it not go through Congress?

Right, it went through congress, it didn't go through me.
How did I have a say?

Did you get to go vote on the US patriot act? I surely didn't.

I will say it is interesting that anybody else I know can order a birth certificate from the state,
and it is no problem at all. At least here in Washington we can.

But Obama seems not to be able to? or refuses to? Interesting.

[J.B.]

Ughhh...not the Patriot Act again....

Atom, you are giving an untruthful representation of what the Act was designed to do, and also ignoring that NOBODY had their "civil rights" violated as direct cause of this act. At least not anybody who did not give us a reason to be suspicious first.

Obama supported the Patriot Act.

Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake

Ughhh...not the Patriot Act again....

Atom, you are giving an untruthful representation of what the Act was designed to do, and also ignoring that NOBODY had their "civil rights" violated as direct cause of this act. At least not anybody who did not give us a reason to be suspicious first.

Obama supported the Patriot Act.

I don't need to give a truthful representation of what it is DESIGNED to do,
it violates constitutional rights, period. It doesn't matter if that is how they intended it, it does it, period.

and your argument is is a joke, nobody who did not give you a reason to be suspicious,
you're the kind of American who frustrates me. You go on and on about our country and/or freedom. But if its not YOU the government is bugging then you don't care.

A report filed by the justice department
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/21/politics/21JUST.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0721-01.htm
Just in 2003, up to June there were 1,073 complaints that were Patriot Act related.

You choose to believe what you want, and ignore what you want. Its funny, everything you disagree with is "liberal propaganda"
and everything you agree with is the truth. haha

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by atomdanger

I don't need to give a truthful representation of what it is DESIGNED to do,
it violates constitutional rights, period. It doesn't matter if that is how they intended it, it does it, period.

and your argument is is a joke, nobody who did not give you a reason to be suspicious,
you're the kind of American who frustrates me. You go on and on about our country and/or freedom. But if its not YOU the government is bugging then you don't care.

A report filed by the justice department
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/21/politics/21JUST.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0721-01.htm
Just in 2003, up to June there were 1,073 complaints that were Patriot Act related.

You choose to believe what you want, and ignore what you want. Its funny, everything you disagree with is "liberal propaganda"
and everything you agree with is the truth. haha

I'm sorry, but people who are planning terrorist attacks against our country don't deserve don't deserve the same rights in a court of law. You are the kind of American that believes everything you read, as long as it conforms to a liberal way of thinking. Did you miss the part about Obama voting for the Patriot Act?

1,073 "complaints" huh....I don't suppose it's a coincidence that those are two HUGE liberal media outlets you got those stories from. Please show me where some common Joe had his door kicked down in the middle of the night, or was arrested for selling drugs after a warrentless wiretap....Find me those people. Don't give me links talking about some Muslims complaining that the cops beat them up. That happens every day, Patriot Act or not.

You just NEED to paint Bush as a bad guy, no matter what. He is EVIL, the BOOGEYMAN!!! I don't disagree with everything on the left side, and I don't agree with everything on the right side, but I REALLY don't buy into the far-left zealotry that you and many others seem to.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by atomdanger

Patriot Act. The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

Patriot Act. The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

Patriot Act. To assist terror investigation, the government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity.

Patriot act. The government may monitor conversations between attorneys and clients in federal prisons and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

Patriot Act. The government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

Patriot Act. Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. US citizens (labeled "unlawful combatants") have been held incommunicado and refused attorneys.

Can you cite your source on this? Because I highly doubt that these excerpts represent the exact wording of the Patriot Act.

[NateR]

Better yet, you can access the Patriot Act here:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...ubl056.107.pdf

So go through that and tell us all exactly where it lists all of those violations of our Constitutional rights.

Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake

I'm sorry, but people who are planning terrorist attacks against our country don't deserve don't deserve the same rights in a court of law. You are the kind of American that believes everything you read, as long as it conforms to a liberal way of thinking. Did you miss the part about Obama voting for the Patriot Act?

1,073 "complaints" huh....I don't suppose it's a coincidence that those are two HUGE liberal media outlets you got those stories from. Please show me where some common Joe had his door kicked down in the middle of the night, or was arrested for selling drugs after a warrentless wiretap....Find me those people. Don't give me links talking about some Muslims complaining that the cops beat them up. That happens every day, Patriot Act or not.

You just NEED to paint Bush as a bad guy, no matter what. He is EVIL, the BOOGEYMAN!!! I don't disagree with everything on the left side, and I don't agree with everything on the right side, but I REALLY don't buy into the far-left zealotry that you and many others seem to.

the point is, they dont have to have proof you're planning an attack,
you can be arrested without trial, searched without reason,etc...

and you don't care. You're the type of person who only looks out for themselves.

Obama voted for the patriot act, YAY, so did almost everybody else.
I didn't claim Obama was perfect, did I?
I also never said I agreed with everything he did.

Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake

1,073 "complaints" huh....I don't suppose it's a coincidence that those are two HUGE liberal media outlets you got those stories from. Please show me where some common Joe had his door kicked down in the middle of the night, or was arrested for selling drugs after a warrentless wiretap....Find me those people. Don't give me links talking about some Muslims complaining that the cops beat them up. That happens every day, Patriot Act or not.

Brandon Mayfield is a Portland, Oregon resident who is a convert to Islam and an attorney. Mayfield was wrongly accused by the government of involvement in the Madrid bombing as a result of evidence, including mistaken fingerprint identification, that fell apart after the FBI re-examined its case following its arrest and detention on Mayfield on a material witness warrant. Attorney General Gonzales acknowledged before the Senate Judiciary Committee that Section 218 of the Patriot Act was implicated in the secret search of Mayfield’s house. FBI admitted that it entered Mayfield’s house without a warrant based on criminal probable cause and copied four computer drives, digitally photographed sever documents, seized ten DNA samples and took approximately 335 digital photographs of Brandon Mayfield’s home.