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  #161  
Old 06-28-2009, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Max
see the difference is that Dave likes Jens and because of this its ok. Dave will try and argue that Jens started the LW div but thats total crap. Jens was the first champ but he left the UFC which ended up causing the UFC to shut down their LW div.
Pulver was given a shot based on two things. First being unbeaten in that division, secondly smushing Cub Swanson.

He did both those things, ergo he qualified.

Jens DID start the lightweight Division...and the Lightweight Division didnt close after Jens Departed...it closed because BJ Penn and Caol Uno, neither could take Pulvers Throne....and they tried...BJ Penn has only just captured a belt he had TWO opportunities to catch BEFORE the lightweight division closed down.

So get your facts right Max
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  #162  
Old 06-28-2009, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by logrus
1. Wrestling at one time was a real sport, it became entertainment later on in its evolution.

2). TNA is not trying to make a mockery of MMA, they are trying to stand out as a wrestling organization, avoiding the traditional 4 sided ring, for the 6 sided rings and to be honest it makes for some interesting moves and combinations. I guess since you think TNA is a mockery of MMA, then Wrestling is a mockery of Boxing, and that PRide is a mockery of Wrestling, which was a mockery of Boxing which are all mockerys of coliseums.

3) An your dead wrong fans do know the difference from WWE, TNA and MMA.

4) Nobody got side swipped at the time, Nog and Mir were the top 2 guys, when Randy was forced to compete it made for a huge cluster ****. So the UFc made a match for Randy with the next available prospect then have them compete with the winner of Nog and Mir to unify it. Same thing happened with the LH's.

5) I still don't see what the problem is with Brock being given a shot, Pulver was given a shot for the Wec title, and he was 1-3 getting dominated by Penn and getting knocked the F@#$ out by an unknown. Thats not really fair to those guys in that division.
1) Professional Wrestling was NEVER a Sport. They lied Logrus

2) Actually, TNA ARE trying to emulate MMA...what would you call the special faux MMA match they did starring Frank Trigg? Marketted Directly as an MMA match...but it was faux...

3) please tell me the difference between WWE and TNA please? They are both Professional Wrestling Promotions, they are for all intense and purposes the same.

4) they should have waited.

5) I've explained that in my reply to Max. Pulvers title shot wasnt based on his past record at Lightweight. It was based on an unbeaten record at Featherweight AND beating Cub Swanson...which he did.
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  #163  
Old 06-28-2009, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
Pulver was given a shot based on two things. First being unbeaten in that division, secondly smushing Cub Swanson.

He did both those things, ergo he qualified.

Jens DID start the lightweight Division...and the Lightweight Division didnt close after Jens Departed...it closed because BJ Penn and Caol Uno, neither could take Pulvers Throne....and they tried...BJ Penn has only just captured a belt he had TWO opportunities to catch BEFORE the lightweight division closed down.

So get your facts right Max
First off Dave, Jens was only 1 -0 in the WEC and there were fighters who put there time in there. If you are gonna bash Brock and Anderson for getting their title shots you should also get mad that Jens got his.

second, the only reason the BJ vs Uno fight happened was because Jens left. Had Jens not left the UFC there would have been no need for the LW tournament.

Third, Jens did not start the LW div. He was the first LW champ of the UFC but there were LW's fighting in Japan as well. Had Jens not been there someone else would have held the crown.
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  #164  
Old 06-28-2009, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Max
1)First off Dave, Jens was only 1 -0 in the WEC and there were fighters who put there time in there.

2) If you are gonna bash Brock and Anderson for getting their title shots you should also get mad that Jens got his.

3) second, the only reason the BJ vs Uno fight happened was because Jens left. Had Jens not left the UFC there would have been no need for the LW tournament.

4) Third, Jens did not start the LW div. He was the first LW champ of the UFC but there were LW's fighting in Japan as well. Had Jens not been there someone else would have held the crown.
1) think you find Cub Swanson was on his way to contendership level.

2) I dont bash Brock Lesnar nor Anderson Silva. I just point out they were fast-tracked at the expense of others. Thats not their fault, its the UFC management. Secondly, I reversed my decision about Anderson Silva after he prooved retrospectively that it was not a completely bad choice. I am fast now losing confidence in him after his most recent double performances...but thats an entirely different matter.

3) I'm sure if Jens Pulver had stayed he'd probably still be reigning now. He is free to go. The UFC prooved AFTER his abdication that they wanted to continue or they would have closed the division down WITHOUT letting BJ Penn and Caol Uno fight for another Title. I'm sure had either one been victorious, the Lightweight Division would never have been shut down at all.

4) I didnt say Jens Pulver was the first ever Lightweight to Fight LMFAO...I didnt even say Jens Pulver was the first to win a Lightweight Award in the UFC. In the times prior to Jens Pulver the Welterweight and the Lightweight Divisions were merged, the first Lightweight Tournement was won by Patrick Miletich. But just like Miletich would go on to Found the Welterweight Division, so Jens Pulver went on to found to Lightweight Division after the two Divisions became Standardized, a process which removed the heavier Lightweights and turned them into Welterweights.

As for someone else would have...well...noone else did, did they? Who cares about what MIGHT have happened. What DID happen was Jens Pulver became synonomous with Lightweight Division in the World outside of the Orient, where its fair to say Kid Yamamoto Reigned at the same time. He's now second only to Urijah Faber at Featherweight dispite having a run of bad luck...you see, it doesnt matter to the crowd whether he wins or loses, pity the soul who has to do war with Jens, if they lose, they lose, if they win, its overshadowed by the crowds love of their opponent. Jens Pulver is quite possibly the FIRST MMA Fighter to have reached the level where his wins and loses are felt as indifferent by the crowd. Most other fighters, had they lost the same number as Jens would have been cast out.

Ask yourself what Pulver has, that almost noone else yet in the sport has...because never have I seen such love for a man whose height was forgotten, who reimerged as a competative loser, and yet who the public simply adore. I say its a mixture of his attitude, his books, who he was for those who can remember that far back, and his time on TUF....Even those who say he should retire do so AFTER they say how they wish they didnt feel that way...when he loses his camp and his promotors get inundated with THOUSANDS of letters and emails within hours, and all of them positive....look at some of the others...it only takes two poor performances for people to turn on Silva and he didnt lose niether of them, it only takes a single allegation of fraud and people suddenly arent so hot on GSP...it only takes a few losses and they cool over Penn...these people who are possibly some of the most naturally tallented people on the planet DO NOT have what Jens Pulver has.

He doesnt need to win, to take the victory, because he is honnest, and because he is so expressive. People love him.
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  #165  
Old 06-28-2009, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
1) Professional Wrestling was NEVER a Sport. They lied Logrus

2) Actually, TNA ARE trying to emulate MMA...what would you call the special faux MMA match they did starring Frank Trigg? Marketted Directly as an MMA match...but it was faux...

3) please tell me the difference between WWE and TNA please? They are both Professional Wrestling Promotions, they are for all intense and purposes the same.

4) they should have waited.

5) I've explained that in my reply to Max. Pulvers title shot wasnt based on his past record at Lightweight. It was based on an unbeaten record at Featherweight AND beating Cub Swanson...which he did.
1. It was real in the very beginning, but was phased for scripted garbage, debate when this actually started is still up for grabs though. Most argue it was shortly after it was introduced to keep entertainment up.

2. Actually Trigg was a commentator and is a wrestler for them. He was used more for his likeness to Kurt Angle storyline. As for the match he had with A.J, even the fans were chanting B.S, and We want wrestling. Which only proves your previous statement that they are morons and cant tell the difference wrong.

3. The Ring is different, the management is different, they have a different division, they have a home Arena, Though I think they do travel now a bit more. It doesn't take much to be different the ring alone is what everyone relates to, just like with Pride and the UFC.
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  #166  
Old 06-28-2009, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by logrus
1. It was real in the very beginning, but was phased for scripted garbage, debate when this actually started is still up for grabs though. Most argue it was shortly after it was introduced to keep entertainment up.

2. Actually Trigg was a commentator and is a wrestler for them. He was used more for his likeness to Kurt Angle storyline. As for the match he had with A.J, even the fans were chanting B.S, and We want wrestling. Which only proves your previous statement that they are morons and cant tell the difference wrong.

3. The Ring is different, the management is different, they have a different division, they have a home Arena, Though I think they do travel now a bit more. It doesn't take much to be different the ring alone is what everyone relates to, just like with Pride and the UFC.
1) No Logrus. It was never real.

After extensive Research...and I mean a Year of trawling through Academic Journals, reading from Sources of people who were Wrestlers themselves, I can say, that the World Wrestling Federation was never anything but Sports-Entertainment. I would be interested to hear why you think otherwise, having spoken Extensively to people in the field of Mimeisis which is what Technically Professional Wrestling is, and has always been, people who teach Ethnography specifically aimed at Professional Wrestling. They all aggree. Professional Wrestling has always been pre-determined. They all admit that for years the public were kept under the illusion that what they were watching was competative, in times before the industry called itself "sports-Entertainment" yes, they did call themselves and market themselves as a Sport. Thats the thing with Professional Wrestling, you never know what is real and what is not, in terms of the storylines, even on the show they produce deliberatley for Wrestlers to speak outside of their character there is no guarentee that they speak honnestly. Biographic and Autobiographic input or Academic research from Sports Ethnographers are the only Truthful information.

If you want to see where I got my information from, I'll give you a bibliography from my thesis

2) No, it proves that they paid to see Professional Wrestling, not Fake Mixed Martial Arts...which is what the got, and I know all about Frank Trigg

3) I watch passively a lot of TNA...I usually have it on in the background when I'm doing stuff like...ohh posting here I dont know much about its origins, or Management. My Research focused on the World Wrestling Federation at about the time they lost their court battle with The World Wildlife Fund, and had to change their name and World Championship Wrestling, which eventually collapsed.
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  #167  
Old 06-28-2009, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
1) Professional Wrestling was NEVER a Sport. They lied Logrus

2) Actually, TNA ARE trying to emulate MMA...what would you call the special faux MMA match they did starring Frank Trigg? Marketted Directly as an MMA match...but it was faux...

3) please tell me the difference between WWE and TNA please? They are both Professional Wrestling Promotions, they are for all intense and purposes the same.

4) they should have waited.

5) I've explained that in my reply to Max. Pulvers title shot wasnt based on his past record at Lightweight. It was based on an unbeaten record at Featherweight AND beating Cub Swanson...which he did.
1.What u talking about Willis,its still a sport,right
2.Wouldn't say TNA/WWE is emmulating MMA,least not in every episode. WWE prides itself on doing social issues in a wrestling pov so this scenrio's will pop up,but I wont say they are copying MMA at every angle.
3. The difference between WWE and TNA is one sucks,and the other sucks more
* I actually do like the WWE at times,and have no desire to watch TNA.
4.-----

5. We can argue until someones blue in the face on who should get title shots in their respective divisions,but the final say is Dana/Joe/Forritas. We all have reasons on why a person should or shouldn't have a shot,but it is what it is.
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  #168  
Old 06-28-2009, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ufcfan2
5. We can argue until someones blue in the face on who should get title shots in their respective divisions,but the final say is Dana/Joe/Forritas. We all have reasons on why a person should or shouldn't have a shot,but it is what it is.
That doesnt mean we need to keep silence
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  #169  
Old 06-28-2009, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn
1) No Logrus. It was never real.

After extensive Research...and I mean a Year of trawling through Academic Journals, reading from Sources of people who were Wrestlers themselves, I can say, that the World Wrestling Federation was never anything but Sports-Entertainment. I would be interested to hear why you think otherwise, having spoken Extensively to people in the field of Mimeisis which is what Technically Professional Wrestling is, and has always been, people who teach Ethnography specifically aimed at Professional Wrestling. They all aggree. Professional Wrestling has always been pre-determined. They all admit that for years the public were kept under the illusion that what they were watching was competative, in times before the industry called itself "sports-Entertainment" yes, they did call themselves and market themselves as a Sport. Thats the thing with Professional Wrestling, you never know what is real and what is not, in terms of the storylines, even on the show they produce deliberatley for Wrestlers to speak outside of their character there is no guarentee that they speak honnestly. Biographic and Autobiographic input or Academic research from Sports Ethnographers are the only Truthful information.

If you want to see where I got my information from, I'll give you a bibliography from my thesis

2) No, it proves that they paid to see Professional Wrestling, not Fake Mixed Martial Arts...which is what the got, and I know all about Frank Trigg

3) I watch passively a lot of TNA...I usually have it on in the background when I'm doing stuff like...ohh posting here I dont know much about its origins, or Management. My Research focused on the World Wrestling Federation at about the time they lost their court battle with The World Wildlife Fund, and had to change their name and World Championship Wrestling, which eventually collapsed.
1. World Wrestling Federation, or better known as the WWF, which has always been nothing but a script. I am talking about wrestling that goes back further, wrestling that pre dates the 1880's where it was done during carnivals and traveling circus's. Where some of those matches are documented as going on for nearly 3 hours and as little as 4 minutes.

2. It proves fans know the difference between real MMA, and fake MMA. It also proves why they go to wrestling matches, which contradicts what you said about wrestling fans in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
The fans of Professional Wrestling are not the same as the fans of Mixed Martial Arts. The point Max is that they DONT know about MMA.
3. Well lets see, Jeff Jarret is the founder a wrestler, the 6 sided ring made way for matches with names 6 sides of steel, something to set them apart from the WWE, and they have the impact zone in Universal Studios which houses the mass majority of their events ( kept from days of WcW). They started as strictly PPV and landed a Cabe Tv deal. Thats it in a nutshell.
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  #170  
Old 06-28-2009, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by logrus
1. World Wrestling Federation, or better known as the WWF, which has always been nothing but a script. I am talking about wrestling that goes back further, wrestling that pre dates the 1880's where it was done during carnivals and traveling circus's. Where some of those matches are documented as going on for nearly 3 hours and as little as 4 minutes.

2. It proves fans know the difference between real MMA, and fake MMA. It also proves why they go to wrestling matches, which contradicts what you said about wrestling fans in general.



3. Well lets see, Jeff Jarret is the founder a wrestler, the 6 sided ring made way for matches with names 6 sides of steel, something to set them apart from the WWE, and they have the impact zone in Universal Studios which houses the mass majority of their events ( kept from days of WcW). They started as strictly PPV and landed a Cabe Tv deal. Thats it in a nutshell.
1) There is no relation to the Wrestling that went on at old Carnivals, which was more like Greco-Roman Wrestling, and Professional Wrestling

2)No, it proves they didnt get what they paid for. With Frank Trigg, unless you want to see him get choked out, you'll always be dissapointed, so incidently most probably will he be also.

3)Where did you get that information from? was it provided for you BY TNA...in which case...I wouldnt trust that information as being accurate

I think I'll provide you with my Bibliography now (i've limited it to the ones about Professional Wrestling)

*Actors on The Canvass Stage: The Dramatoc Conventions of Professional Wrestling, an artical taken from The Journal of Popular Culture Volume Six. Craven and Moseley

*Experiements in Professional Wrestling: Towards a Performative and sensuous Sport ethnography, taken from The Sociology of Sport Journal Volume Sixteen. De Garis

*Fifty Million Viewers Cant be Wrong: Professional Wrestling, Sports-Entertainment, and Mimesis, taken from The Sociology of Sport Journal Volume 19. Atkinson.

*Never Trust a Snake: WWF Wrestling as Masculine Melodrama, taken from Out Of Bounds: Sport, Media and the politics of Identity. Jenkins

* Professional Wrestling, Moral Commentary through Ritual Metaphore, taken from The Journal of Ritual Studies Volume Seven. Miglore

*The Political and Social Power of Sports in the Ancient and Modern World. White

*The World of Wrestling, taken from Mythologies. Barthes

*Morality on the Mat Canterbury Department of Theatre and Film Studies

*Professional Wrestling as Moral Order taken from The Sociological Enquiry Volume Forty Four. Henricks

*Sports Entertainment or Entertaining Sport McNeil

*The Dangerous Psycho-Logic of Media Effects taken from Ill Effects: The media/Violence debate. Vine

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